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Water Cannon at Student Demos? Conservatives Say NO... Watch

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    (Original post by FyreFight)

    Fact is that hear-say evidence from people with an axe to grind, such as yourself, is worth less than the print on the Daily Mail when it comes to trustworthy opinions.
    Please tell me what axe I have to grind?

    I have not stated opinion, I have stated what I saw happen at the 9/12 protest.

    I was not injured in the protest and watched from the press area. I am middle class, university educated and was until recently a little conservative, if anything. I was not involved in violence, do not condone violence and brought only warm clothing, water, food and sunglasses to the protest. In future I would also bring a helmet, goggles and shinpads in case I am unfortunate enough to be trapped near police.

    My friends are middle class, timid girls, university students who are all very conservative. They marched because they felt the new fees were just too high for future students. They were not involved in any acts of violence but were threatened, injured and prevented from accessing food, water, warm shelter and toilets when contained by the police from early afternoon until midnight.

    Prior to the event, I had regarded police as being upholders of the law, there to keep you safe and prevent crime. After the event, it seemed that things were not as simple as that.
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    (Original post by ChrisBan)
    You don't go to a protest for anything but violent purpose if you have a home made riotshield... probably most strongly highlighted from about 50 seconds in this video

    funny how they have homemade shields and decide to charge the police with them

    You sound almost surprised that the police turned up with a baton each? They were hardly going to stand there handing out flowers and hugs.
    Shields are for self protection. I would certainly take protective clothing if attending a future protest. It seems a sensible precaution against getting hit with a baton and your head cracked open.

    I was not surprised, I was responding to the assertion that students took bats with them. I was not aware of any students bringing bats, but pointing out that every police officer took batons.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Could you please highlight the evidence to support your assertions? I am unsure as to which parts of the article you are referring to.

    At the 9/12 protest, I am not aware that any buildings were illegally occupied, let alone trashed and entered.

    PS: Cameron's statements don't count as evidence. His statements are inconsistent with video evidence of what happened.
    I was referring to the first protest where there was a very very small police respond at first.

    Scuffles first broke out after the protest, which had been called by a loose coalition of student groups called the National Coalition Against Fees and Cuts (NCAFC), deviated from the agreed route, which initially involved processing south down Horse Guards Road, crossing the north side of Parliament Square, and turning north into Whitehall, before finishing on Victoria embankment, by the Thames.

    Within 15 minutes the police line was breached by protesters throwing smoke bombs and eggs, and the crowd spilled across to occupy the whole of Parliament Square, pulling down temporary fencing in order to enter the green.

    Simon Hardy, an NCAFC co-organiser, said the line had been breached because: "It was clear that a lot of students wanted to protest in Parliament Square.

    In one of the most violent incidents, a group with a metal wedge-shaped battering ram charged the police line and broke through to the other side; police responded with a horseback charge in which a number of uninvolved protesters were injured.


    Tbh its pretty clear from many accounts there was violence present well before the kettle. As for the violence within the kettle is hardly acceptable to blame it on the police. Normal people do not pick up fencing and use them to ram through police. These are meant to be mature students making a point in a peaceful protest. Not a pack of animals who get stuck in an area and so respond by attacking the area around them and the police.

    Plus this is all from an account in the guardian a newspaper well know to be a left wing version of the daily mail, even they show it was protesters that started the violence
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Indeed, hence the mass student attack on libraries and bookshops.
    No, they would use the books as weapons. They are prepared to threaten people's lives and destroy some of the nation's historic buildings and streets in order to riot.

    Instead they of using the books as weapons, they could have have gone to the library and studied them.

    Next time Labour is in power, a few universities will be providing the "Riot"degree.
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    (Original post by The_Male_Melons)
    No, they would use the books as weapons. They are prepared to threaten people's lives and destroy some of the nation's historic buildings and streets in order to riot.

    Instead they of using the books as weapons, they could have have gone to the library and studied them.

    Next time Labour is in power, a few universities will be providing the "Riot"degree.
    Oh, the irony. It makes me giggle.
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Shields are for self protection. I would certainly take protective clothing if attending a future protest. It seems a sensible precaution against getting hit with a baton and your head cracked open.

    I was not surprised, I was responding to the assertion that students took bats with them. I was not aware of any students bringing bats, but pointing out that every police officer took batons.
    I'd personally take a helmet for all the dicks throwing concrete/poles/wooden posts etc. As per that video, and there are a few more around, shields look to have been used more as an offensive weapon rather than a defensive one.
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    (Original post by FyreFight)

    . No policeman was trying to hospitalise students.
    True, that. When Alfie Meadows was sent to Chelsea and Westminster hospital due to severe head injuries, police tried to stop him being treated there and suggested he go to Charing Cross Hospital, delaying emergency treatment. The ambulance driver became enraged and insisted Meadows was treated immediately.

    n.b. I don't think anyone deliberately tries to hospitalise anyone else.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    I was referring to the first protest where there was a very very small police respond at first.

    Scuffles first broke out after the protest, which had been called by a loose coalition of student groups called the National Coalition Against Fees and Cuts (NCAFC), deviated from the agreed route, which initially involved processing south down Horse Guards Road, crossing the north side of Parliament Square, and turning north into Whitehall, before finishing on Victoria embankment, by the Thames.

    Within 15 minutes the police line was breached by protesters throwing smoke bombs and eggs, and the crowd spilled across to occupy the whole of Parliament Square, pulling down temporary fencing in order to enter the green.

    That's not what happened. I was there, and nothing was thrown. No police line was breached, the only thing that was breached, as it states correctly, is the temporary fencing that was cordoning off the green. The police were nowhere near them.

    police line ----------
    protesters +++++
    fence ============


    Simon Hardy, an NCAFC co-organiser, said the line had been breached because: "It was clear that a lot of students wanted to protest in Parliament Square.

    In one of the most violent incidents, a group with a metal wedge-shaped battering ram charged the police line and broke through to the other side; police responded with a horseback charge in which a number of uninvolved protesters were injured.

    No, they couldn't, the police line was steadfast. They broke through the temporary fencing.


    Tbh its pretty clear from many accounts there was violence present well before the kettle. As for the violence within the kettle is hardly acceptable to blame it on the police. Normal people do not pick up fencing and use them to ram through police. These are meant to be mature students making a point in a peaceful protest. Not a pack of animals who get stuck in an area and so respond by attacking the area around them and the police.

    Plus this is all from an account in the guardian a newspaper well know to be a left wing version of the daily mail, even they show it was protesters that started the violence
    By "normal" do you mean students angry about the cuts to Higher Education? By the time the students were in the green grass area, they police were already kettling from the back.

    Do you know what it feels like to be caged?
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    (Original post by channy)
    Oh, the irony. It makes me giggle.
    Yup
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    (Original post by channy)
    Yeah, they weren't normal people. By the time the students were in the green grass area, they police were already kettling from the back.

    Do you know what it feels like to be caged?

    Again, blown massively out of proportion, as it was literally about 5-10 people who gives the rest a bad name.
    So? The protesters were not allowed to stay in parliament square. They knew this.
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    (Original post by The_Male_Melons)
    No, they would use the books as weapons. They are prepared to threaten people's lives and destroy some of the nation's historic buildings and streets in order to riot.

    Instead they of using the books as weapons, they could have have gone to the library and studied them.

    Next time Labour is in power, a few universities will be providing the "Riot"degree.
    I am very sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying.

    They were not real books, they were foam shields for protection/painted with particular book titles to make a point. Reading them helps.

    Lol, what? Labour wants to keep the status quo as much as the next party and protests are not what any gov't wants.

    There were no books harmed in the making of 9/12.
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    Reading this thread makes me realise how stupid some people are. Thinking that it was the police who started the violence and that policeman went round giving their friends black eyes for no reason. The person must of been right up in the police mans face to get a black eye.

    I'm a Labour supporter but I think the riots are ridiculous and the police should get really tough on them. If people want to fight then lets give the police rubber bullets and water cannons. Hey why not even get some tear gas out so we can see these people crying saying the police started it so therefore they are alowed to be violent?
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    So? The protesters were not allowed to stay in parliament square. They knew this.
    I am very confused.
    If they were not allowed to stay in Parliament Square, then why were they prevented from marching beyond Parliament Square and why were they kettled into Parliament Square?

    And nobody told me or anyone else I knew that we were not allowed to be in Parliament Square
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    (Original post by Pads)
    Reading this thread makes me realise how stupid some people are. Thinking that it was the police who started the violence and that policeman went round giving their friends black eyes for no reason. The person must of been right up in the police mans face to get a black eye.
    Before I attended the protest, I would have thought similar things to you. However, when I saw non violent people being beaten by police, I was very, very shocked. Seeing what happened was a real eye opener.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    So? The protesters were not allowed to stay in parliament square. They knew this.
    Actually, hardly anyone knew. I didn't know. I was way back, but I'm hardly going to go off on my own to whatever the agreed route was.

    I don't know what happened at the front, and who was leading, but it's quite naive to think the protest wasn't going to end up at Parliament Sq, as befits the police force there.

    I didn't see any police shouting "Hey, you boys are going the wrong way! This is the planned route". It's as if...just a slither of a thought, but it's as if they wanted us to go to P Sq.

    They seemed fairly quick in getting behind the crowd to "contain it". Also, the places where they were stationed, why not block off the entrances to P Sq? They had placed themselves right outside the building, not at the entrances to the Sq. Seems pretty inviting, don't you think?

    And, the roads were narrow, they could have easily blocked the ones going to P Sq. As they did, when they successfully stopped the protesters getting out.
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    (Original post by channy)
    Actually, hardly anyone knew. I didn't know. I was way back, but I'm hardly going to go off on my own to whatever the agreed route was.

    I don't know what happened at the front, and who was leading, but it's quite naive to think the protest wasn't going to end up at Parliament Sq, as befits the police force there.

    I didn't see any police shouting "Hey, you boys are going the wrong way! This is the planned route". It's as if...just a slither of a thought, but it's as if they wanted us to go to P Sq.

    They seemed fairly quick in getting behind the crowd to "contain it". Also, the places where they were stationed, why not block off the entrances to P Sq? They had placed themselves right outside the building, not at the entrances to the Sq. Seems pretty inviting, don't you think?

    And, the roads were narrow, they could have easily blocked the ones going to P Sq. As they did, when they successfully stopped the protesters getting out.
    Plus this.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    This is such a fail of logic. I hate the people that try to argue this. The students get violent so the police react then its suddenly the police's fault when people get hurt despite the fact its the protesters that start it.
    sorry but it isn't failed logic. It is what happens in mainland europe. Have you not seen the riots there??/ Ours are tame in comparison. The police use water cannons there and they get petrol bombs thrown at them. There were no petrol bombs at the student protests. If they started to use them, people, me included would get incredibly angry and would come prepared for them using them.
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    (Original post by channy)
    Actually, hardly anyone knew. I didn't know. I was way back, but I'm hardly going to go off on my own to whatever the agreed route was.

    I don't know what happened at the front, and who was leading, but it's quite naive to think the protest wasn't going to end up at Parliament Sq, as befits the police force there.

    I didn't see any police shouting "Hey, you boys are going the wrong way! This is the planned route". It's as if...just a slither of a thought, but it's as if they wanted us to go to P Sq.

    They seemed fairly quick in getting behind the crowd to "contain it". Also, the places where they were stationed, why not block off the entrances to P Sq? They had placed themselves right outside the building, not at the entrances to the Sq. Seems pretty inviting, don't you think?

    And, the roads were narrow, they could have easily blocked the ones going to P Sq. As they did, when they successfully stopped the protesters getting out.


    Well what kind of a pillock shows up the a march without knowing where it is going and without doing any kind of research into it?
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    (Original post by No Future)
    Before I attended the protest, I would have thought similar things to you. However, when I saw non violent people being beaten by police, I was very, very shocked. Seeing what happened was a real eye opener.
    Ok can I ask you a question, and I want you to be very honest.


    Did police walk up to protesters who werent next to a police line and assault them?

    What you saying is police went into the kettled area, where police knew that it was dangerous for them to be as people would try kick them to death, and attacked protestors that where quietly sitting there.


    Somehow I dont believe that happened.
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    (Original post by ChrisBan)
    As per that video, and there are a few more around, shields look to have been used more as an offensive weapon rather than a defensive one.
    Agreed, this was after the police kettled people and prevented them from leaving.

    The foam books were used as placards/political statements initially.
 
 
 
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