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The Republic of Ireland shoud re-join the Union Watch

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    (Original post by L i b)
    I assume, however, you are inferring military occupation - which clearly did not happen in Ireland during the 1801-1922 period, and indeed presupposes a state of hostility between two powers which did not - and as a result of the shared monarchy, could not - exist then. It was governed by civil laws as an integral part of the British state.
    In reality, it was occupied territory during this period. The Irish people did not want British rule, hence the continual unrest and rebellion.

    You seem to be pretending Ireland was not colonised many years before the time you mention- as if it doesn't count that Ireland was independent before English colonisation, because it was simply too long ago.
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    I'd question what you would call the Black and Tans and Auxilliaries Lib?

    Nevermind the assumption that this will bring the IRA out in force, the policy itself is utter lunacy, and arrogance.

    I don't share this massive EU-skepticism. Yes the EU makes decisions, has a parliament and basically forced the Lisbon Treaty. We cannot control our currency and we're under pressure to lower corporation tax. HOWEVER, the euro is keeping Ireland afloat. The punt would have long collapsed at this stage- and don't suggest going back to sterling! Ireland still has its own government and senate and retains authority. The EU has funded our roads and infrastructure and has given massive amounts towards our bailout. That to me outweighs anything sinister about it. I think it's interesting that the UK benefits from the EU, does not have the power to hold referenda on EU law, retains its currency and despises the EU.
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    It would never happen, they wouldn't agree to it.
    If hypothetically they did though wouldn't that add more of a financial burden to the UK, thereby putting more strain on the fiances and budget of the UK?
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    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    I'd question what you would call the Black and Tans and Auxilliaries Lib?

    Nevermind the assumption that this will bring the IRA out in force, the policy itself is utter lunacy, and arrogance.

    I don't share this massive EU-skepticism. Yes the EU makes decisions, has a parliament and basically forced the Lisbon Treaty. We cannot control our currency and we're under pressure to lower corporation tax. HOWEVER, the euro is keeping Ireland afloat. The punt would have long collapsed at this stage- and don't suggest going back to sterling! Ireland still has its own government and senate and retains authority. The EU has funded our roads and infrastructure and has given massive amounts towards our bailout. That to me outweighs anything sinister about it. I think it's interesting that the UK benefits from the EU, does not have the power to hold referenda on EU law, retains its currency and despises the EU.
    In which ways does the uk benefit from the EU,just out of interest, say compared to countries like Turkey which have a free trade agreement with the EU anyway without being in it?
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    Hell, I don't want Ireland back. Compared to Ireland, our economy looks like a powerhouse.
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    (Original post by saoirse)
    In reality, it was occupied territory during this period. The Irish people did not want British rule, hence the continual unrest and rebellion.
    Military occupation is term of art in international law. The legitimate rule of a state over a given area is not dependent on the people of that area supporting it. Even if Ireland had been militarily conquered - which it wasn't - it was passed into the civil framework of the state, and thus would be considered to be an annexed territory. But, as I say, it was not - it was an ordinary part of the United Kingdom.

    You seem to be pretending Ireland was not colonised many years before the time you mention- as if it doesn't count that Ireland was independent before English colonisation, because it was simply too long ago.
    Before 1801, Ireland was an independent country which shared a monarch with Great Britain. Any British influence upon its government was brought about by its own laws. Naturally given the time, the Crown held considerably more sway than it does today. Oddly enough, however, the Crown had little interest before 1801 in merging the two kingdoms: the Parliament of Ireland repeatedly petitioned in the wake of 1707 for union with the new state of Great Britain, but was repeatedly ignored.

    (Original post by StarsAreFixed)
    I'd question what you would call the Black and Tans and Auxilliaries Lib?
    They were paramilitary police forces (or, rather, auxiliary units of police forces) who had a reputation for brutality.
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    (Original post by TheRevolution)
    Coercion?

    Alternitivley, hope for another collapse when ailout money is gone and try to bargain...oh it's so hopeless isn't it?
    yeah right we went through centuries of british persecution to enjoy one century on indepandance just so that you could bully/coerce/blackmail us into coming back,

    the Irish polulace would never stand for it, too many people remember things like the days of the black and tanks and too many younger people know the stories.


    (Original post by Barden)
    Says the Tory with a White Ensign as his profile pic... :rolleyes:
    oh if i could rep you twice for this post i would.

    (Original post by D.R.E)
    This is an excellent post; the only reason Ireland exists right now is because people have some irrational leaning towards nationalism. Ireland would be better off part of the Union, and the Union would be better off having Ireland as a part of it. I'm sure most British view the Irish as one and the same as them, and would welcome Ireland's reinstatement into the Union.

    Or maybe I'm just speaking for myself here.
    Your speaking as if you really are from Jupiter. And why is nationlism irrational and wrong, since when did it become a bad thing to be proud of where you come from. And given the xenophobic popularity of papers such as the Mail and Sun i very much doubt people from the UK would want Ireland back and i know for damn sure that Ireland would not come back.

    (Original post by TheRevolution)
    I agree with you and why you say nationalism in Irelands case was not repugnant (the concept at least). The radical republicans like Michael Collins/de Valera were less savoury charachters however.

    I think more could have been doene by the British to make Ireland feel more like part of the Union. Robert Kee agrees with me, Victoria and other monarchs could have visited more, Catholics could have been given more senior positions and earlier, rebellions put down less heavy handedly especially 1916 - a time where most of the population was happy to accept Home Rule.

    Do you think the existence of Catholicism as the dominant religion made separation inevitable?
    The 1916 rising was folly on both sides, the likes of Pearse and Connoly had read too many hero stories of the likes of Wolfe Tone and McCraken and the British put it down far too heavily. And remember Home Rule that was that Parnell instigated was a stepping stone to independance which wasnt achieved until later anyway.

    Collins was a war leader who genuinely tried his best, as for Devalera hes a different kettle of fish.
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    yeah right we went through centuries of british persecution to enjoy one century on indepandance just so that you could bully/coerce/blackmail us into coming back,
    We? If I recall you're a Brummie. Anyway, the concept that Ireland was somehow persecuted for being Irish is nonsense. Aside from the Irish nationalist movement, which was put down as any separatist movement would be in virtually any first world country of the era, the history of Ireland is simply the history of several different issues, often originating outside the island.

    Your speaking as if you really are from Jupiter. And why is nationlism irrational and wrong, since when did it become a bad thing to be proud of where you come from. And given the xenophobic popularity of papers such as the Mail and Sun i very much doubt people from the UK would want Ireland back and i know for damn sure that Ireland would not come back.
    It's irrational and wrong in the same way that to be proud of your race - and to politicise that pride - is wrong. Politics is about putting aside your own identity groups and to work for wider interests. Nationalism is also an inherently illiberal way of running a state: raising one culture above others as being orthodox, and thus condemning those who do not adhere to it as outside of the state's recognised 'people'.

    Anyway, the very concept surrounding nationalist arguments to secede from larger states - as the Irish nationalists used - is absurd, and hinges on a view of humanity where groups of people divided by (often largely arbitrary) social and identity differences cannot and should not co-operate on an equal footing.
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    (Original post by TheRevolution)
    Who agrees that Ireland should become part of the kingdon again?

    Who also agree that we should have forced them to do it and withholded bailout money (obv the EU prevent us from doing this in reality so hypotheticallY)?

    Is it likely that Irlenad coming back would be good for Btitain economically and politically?
    We have Ireland by the balls anyway, why antagonise them further by actually taking their sovereignty?

    They have a puppet government, which stops them from rebelling, but in reality they are completely economically enslaved to us.
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    This thread is baffling

    If someone is looking for a good enough reason for Ireland not re-joining the Union this man might have something to say about it:



    There's also the matter of "The Troubles" which lasted from the late sixties to 1998 and the war of independence. I know this is a forum for young students, but I would at least have thought there wouldn't be a lack of historical ignorance.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    We? If I recall you're a Brummie. Anyway, the concept that Ireland was somehow persecuted for being Irish is nonsense. Aside from the Irish nationalist movement, which was put down as any separatist movement would be in virtually any first world country of the era, the history of Ireland is simply the history of several different issues, often originating outside the island.
    I live in Birmingham i am not a Brummie. And whether it is was put down any other way doesnt change the fact that it was still put down and brutally and it has not been forgotten no more than any other people who were conquered and repressed.

    (Original post by L i b)
    It's irrational and wrong in the same way that to be proud of your race - and to politicise that pride - is wrong. Politics is about putting aside your own identity groups and to work for wider interests. Nationalism is also an inherently illiberal way of running a state: raising one culture above others as being orthodox, and thus condemning those who do not adhere to it as outside of the state's recognised 'people'.

    Anyway, the very concept surrounding nationalist arguments to secede from larger states - as the Irish nationalists used - is absurd, and hinges on a view of humanity where groups of people divided by (often largely arbitrary) social and identity differences cannot and should not co-operate on an equal footing.
    I wont get into this debate with you, lets just agree to disagree. I'm proud of who i am, my culture, my history and my roots, you say its wrong so we'll leave it there.
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    When Scotland gain independence their won't UK
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    -there won't be a UK
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObbcK...eature=related
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    (Original post by silverbolt)
    I live in Birmingham i am not a Brummie. And whether it is was put down any other way doesnt change the fact that it was still put down and brutally and it has not been forgotten no more than any other people who were conquered and repressed.
    My point was mainly that the perception of the UK Government's influence in Ireland has been largely created after the event by Irish nationalists for political reasons. English and Scottish history too have these times, where rebellions were suppressed or where the government seemed to be defending the interests of a small upper class. The conclusion to draw from this is that perceptions about history can be changed, often within a generation.

    I wont get into this debate with you, lets just agree to disagree. I'm proud of who i am, my culture, my history and my roots, you say its wrong so we'll leave it there.
    I don't say it's wrong, I say it's wrong to politicise it in an exclusionary way.
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    (Original post by RandyMann)
    When Scotland gain independence their won't UK
    Which would be an interesting fact were there any indication Scotland will become an independent country, or if indeed it was true. Scotland leaving the UK will no more affect the existence of the UK than Ireland leaving it did. There will still be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which would then cover England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    All the same, I think it's fairly safe to dismiss you. Posting pro-terrorist songs and making quite frankly ignorant remarks about the UK is hardly framing you in a positive light.
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    Do you mean re-join via a plebicite in the republic or be foced to re-join by Britain?

    I don't think there is much chance of a majority of Irish citizens voting in favour of restoration.

    Obviously if they were forced to join, they would be able to put up negligible resistance and even then thats only for a very short period time. The UK's military dwarf's that of the Irish.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Which would be an interesting fact were there any indication Scotland will become an independent country, or if indeed it was true. Scotland leaving the UK will no more affect the existence of the UK than Ireland leaving it did. There will still be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which would then cover England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

    All the same, I think it's fairly safe to dismiss you. Posting pro-terrorist songs and making quite frankly ignorant remarks about the UK is hardly framing you in a positive light.
    How dare you call the IRA terrorists! Your British army are terrorists.
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    (Original post by 122025278)
    Do you mean re-join via a plebicite in the republic or be foced to re-join by Britain?
    The mechanism for doing it or the support for it isn't really the issue, it's more a 'should?' than a 'how?' thread.

    I don't think there is much chance of a majority of Irish citizens voting in favour of restoration.
    Well, Britons are able to vote in their elections if they're resident, I believe - so, erm, get a few million of us to pop on the ferry?
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    (Original post by RandyMann)
    How dare you call the IRA terrorists! Your British army are terrorists.
    Uh huh...
 
 
 
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