Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Poorest pupils '55 times less likely to go to Oxbridge' Watch

    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Intelligence = Head size = Brain size
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KingPrawn0356)
    That will not result in equaility because state schools vary in quality enourmously. It would just put additional strain on the education budget and the richer parents would just move to areas with good schools.
    If we abolished private schools you're right, at the moment parents could move. In the future we should move towards closing the gap in regards to quality, with increased funding and taxation.

    (Original post by im so academic)
    Fair enough.



    No, don't bring in your communist ideals into this. If you abolish private schools, parents will simply pay for the best tutors.
    Even so, it will still be a better system than we have now. If all students are educated equally, do you really think increased tutoring will make a huge difference? I doubt children would relish taking part in tutoring lessons every day after school. The main problem is the social divide that's created; the preconceptions that state schooled children have about Oxbridge. If all children are educated equally, then hopefully the most academically capable and hardworking students should be rewarded thusly, regardless of their upbringing.
    • Offline

      13
      (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
      Even so, it will still be a better system than we have now.
      Even if it were implemented, we wouldn't start seeing effects for decades.

      If all students are educated equally, do you really think increased tutoring will make a huge difference?
      And how do you propose to do this?

      I doubt children would relish taking part in tutoring lessons every day after school. The main problem is the social divide that's created; the preconceptions that state schooled children have about Oxbridge.
      Despite all of the Outreach they do, certain state school students will ALWAYS have their preconceptions about Oxbridge.

      If all children are educated equally, then hopefully the most academically capable and hardworking students should be rewarded thusly, regardless of their upbringing.
      Nope, we would still be in the same situation we are in - those with richer parents will obviously be at a higher advantage.
      Offline

      2
      ReputationRep:
      (Original post by im so academic)
      Even if it were implemented, we wouldn't start seeing effects for decades.

      Is than an excuse for not doing it? Obviously a major change will take time to have an effect, but it least it will eventually.

      And how do you propose to do this?

      What, educate students equally? Well first off, everyone goes to state schools. Then we move to improve poorer schools with funding (perhaps from increased taxation).

      Despite all of the Outreach they do, certain state school students will ALWAYS have their preconceptions about Oxbridge.

      Maybe at first, maybe for a long time. However, eventually I believe that preconceptions of social class and what is possible will erode away, if we move towards equality in the education system. What is certain is that under the current system it is not fair.

      Nope, we would still be in the same situation we are in - those with richer parents will obviously be at a higher advantage.

      But a much lower advantage that the current system! You can't suggest that having students go to the same schools will have no effect on the overall equality of education, despite the fact they are in the same classes, doing the same work!
      bold
      Offline

      0
      ReputationRep:
      (Original post by bobbycrisp)
      logically - and not trying to sound arrogant or big headed or anything - but isn't it likely that richer people ARE richer because they are smarter, and so they've earned more money, and so they pass on their intelligence to their children, who can go to Oxbridge becuase they're smart enough?
      Logically the legacy of a rich family starts somewhere and it usually starts with someone bright. But just because your family may be rich doesn't neccesarily mean you are.

      I know someone who doesn't come from a very rich family directly (from his mum and dad) but he's amazingly smart, and could easily get into most universities if he wanted to. And I know someone else who shares the exact same grades as him but only got those from having a rich family who could afford his tutors - does this mean he's smart?
      Offline

      0
      ReputationRep:
      Positive discrimination is not a good thing. I fully agree that Universities should take the best applicants. The problem is capitalism.
      • Offline

        13
        (Original post by IFondledAGibbon)
        bold
        Is than an excuse for not doing it? Obviously a major change will take time to have an effect, but it least it will eventually.
        It's being pragmatic. In addition, we don't even know if it will work. (And I bet it doesn;t).

        What, educate students equally? Well first off, everyone goes to state schools.
        Sure, rich parents will just send their kids abroad.

        Then we move to improve poorer schools with funding (perhaps from increased taxation).
        The Labour party has spent BILLIONS in the educational sector, and yet nothing seems to have been improved. Chucking more money at poorer schools will not do anything.

        And, lol, increased taxation? Like the majority of the electorate would vote for that. Dont' be so stupid.

        Maybe at first, maybe for a long time. However, eventually I believe that preconceptions of social class and what is possible will erode away, if we move towards equality in the education system. What is certain is that under the current system it is not fair.
        The system will always be "unfair". It's natural for people to be more advantageous than others.

        But a much lower advantage that the current system! You can't suggest that having students go to the same schools will have no effect on the overall equality of education, despite the fact they are in the same classes, doing the same work!
        No, richer parents would pay for tutors who will give their children extra work.

        It's just impractical and it will never work.
        Offline

        1
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by Delaney)
        Personally I just think this is a case of statistics being used to argue a point - generally private schoolers get a better level of education and therefore better grades. Top uni's aim to get the top students, therefore the level of private school students would be much higher than less 'prestigious' uni's.
        This. What I don't understand is that there obviously is a discrepency between the proportion of people who get in from poor background up against the rich even if we do adjust the statistics to excluse private schoolers and looks at kids within state schools alone... but for some reason, they've decided to bend the statistics to their liking and it pretty much invalidates an otherwise valid argument. What a pity.

        News groups need to start hiring actual statisticians.
        Offline

        13
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by hypocriticaljap)
        Of course what makes this argument utter bollox is the fact, as Sutton have also found, that when it comes to degree classification Comprehensive pupils out perform private schoolers and grammar schoolers.
        Interesting...

        I'm actually suprised only 176 free schoolers got 3 As. Is that from the whole country?
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by xRosieMx)
        Just got back from interview at Oxford, out of the 15 maths people i befriended, only the two going to private schools got a place, they weren't even in the right school year. Everyone else was from a state school and got rejected outright not even pooled. They get extra tuition and help to prepare for the MAT test, and we are invited for interview just as bums on seats. They don't care whether we have had preparation or went in blind. Who knows what kind of brown envelope underhand dealings are going on between these posh private schools and the Universities.
        I am going to appeal against the decision. TBH i wouldn't go now anyway. Oxford is full of geeks and snobs, either people who have no life and study around the clock, or people who have been tutored all the way and fit the bill from a private school. There are very few normal kids from state schools who are just bright. And they're overrated anyway. I've heard they work you to the bone, and i've been advised to go elsewhere, there are plenty of unis with just as good reputations that allow you to have a social life too!!
        They really aren't the Be all and End all...
        It is rather strange that you came to this conclusion AFTER you were rejected. If you were half as smart as you obviously think you are you would have worked that out way before. Now you just seem disingenuous. I don't doubt that if they'd given you a place no such thoughts would have even crossed your mind. You only study round the clock at Oxbridge because the terms are so short any way...
        • PS Helper
        Offline

        2
        ReputationRep:
        It's the misconceptions people have that is causing this. I have one friend who keeps going on about how she wouldn't get into Cambridge because they would reject her for being working class (or maybe due to the fact she barely scraped an E in History I muttered ). "How would the interviewers know?" I asked, then she shut up because you don't put in your parents' income on Apply. Another thought it cost more to go to Oxford and Cambridge. Another said that the unis can see where else you have applied and reject you if you applied to Cambridge. The university system needs to be made clearer to everyone, any myths must be addressed.
        Offline

        9
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by xRosieMx)
        Just got back from interview at Oxford, out of the 15 maths people i befriended, only the two going to private schools got a place, they weren't even in the right school year. Everyone else was from a state school and got rejected outright not even pooled. They get extra tuition and help to prepare for the MAT test, and we are invited for interview just as bums on seats. They don't care whether we have had preparation or went in blind. Who knows what kind of brown envelope underhand dealings are going on between these posh private schools and the Universities.
        I am going to appeal against the decision. TBH i wouldn't go now anyway. Oxford is full of geeks and snobs, either people who have no life and study around the clock, or people who have been tutored all the way and fit the bill from a private school. There are very few normal kids from state schools who are just bright. And they're overrated anyway. I've heard they work you to the bone, and i've been advised to go elsewhere, there are plenty of unis with just as good reputations that allow you to have a social life too!!
        They really aren't the Be all and End all...
        I just got in for that course, and GUESS WHAT I went to a state school and state sixth form. I got no tuition for the MAT test. I am sorry that you didn't get in mate but lets be honest if you went to interviews you know as well as me that you can't lump the people there into just the 'Tutored' or the 'No lifes'. Fair play though people like that do exist but I think you need more than just pure tuition to get in.

        I am going to appeal against the decision. TBH i wouldn't go now anyway.

        HA I love this bit, makes perfect sense.

        They really aren't the Be all and End all...


        This actually is true.
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        I am a Cambridge medical applicant who has a "poor" background and has attended both a state secondary school and sixth form. Got AAAA for As-level.....was the only one to do so my sixth form have a 45 percent A-E A-level passing rate. I got 4A*, 6A's for GCSE............I have has to work so hard to get these grades...I haven't had the best environment or education. I have had an interview at Cambridge.....just waiting for rejection/offer/pool...I come from an estate in East London


        My parents are from nigeria and are still together and I would be the first in my family to go uni
        Do you honestly think that this will be considered by Cambridge?


        .....I just don't think so.......thats y ppl complain
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        It's the fault of bad schools which fail to bring out the best from their pupils whether poor or rich ones. Besides, there is around 100 of other universities in this country.

        Oxbridge is one the world's top notch educational establishments so there will be a lot of candidates with similar, fantastic grades and what not, not only from the UK but from all over the world.

        It is pretty obvious that candidates from poor backgrounds and **** schools will be disadvantaged. Oxbridge wants best candidates available, in many different dimensions. Somehow, it happens to be that these candidates most often come from wealthy families which provide the best things available (schools, extra activities, cultural enrichment, nutrition etc.) for their children. Nothing new here.

        As I said, there is a whole lot of other universities and you still can get good jobs and be successful.
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by RupertTheBear)
        I just got in for that course, and GUESS WHAT I went to a state school and state sixth form. I got no tuition for the MAT test. I am sorry that you didn't get in mate but lets be honest if you went to interviews you know as well as me that you can't lump the people there into just the 'Tutored' or the 'No lifes'. Fair play though people like that do exist but I think you need more than just pure tuition to get in.

        I am going to appeal against the decision. TBH i wouldn't go now anyway.

        HA I love this bit, makes perfect sense.

        They really aren't the Be all and End all...


        This actually is true.
        Well done you.

        Obviously you can't lump EVERYBODY into that category, but it does seem to be a general trend. Plus don't you think you might be viewing through rose-tinted spectacles seeing as you have been offered a place? And yeah u need more than tuition to get in, but BOY does it help! A

        And FYI i really mean it... the beds were nasty so I'm kinda glad i got rejected tbh cos i know i would have found it hard to resist had i got in.
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by Elipsis)
        It is rather strange that you came to this conclusion AFTER you were rejected. If you were half as smart as you obviously think you are you would have worked that out way before. Now you just seem disingenuous. I don't doubt that if they'd given you a place no such thoughts would have even crossed your mind. You only study round the clock at Oxbridge because the terms are so short any way...
        Actually, I had never stayed for a long time in Oxford before, so it's not strange at all that i decided it wasn't all that afterwards. FYI the beds and rooms were quite manky and basic. Plus you know nothing about me or my grades or achievements so you are in no position to judge my smartness.

        Happy New Year btw peace and love xD
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        Open your eyes people.

        MONEY = private schooling + tutoring for exams/interviews =PLACE AT OXBRIDGE!!
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by dnumberwang)
        are you bitter

        oh and if it was the MAT then you can just prepare by yourself for heaven's sake! there are past papers on the oxford maths department website
        No private tuition on the Oxford website though, you're on your own!
        Offline

        0
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by dnumberwang)
        are you bitter

        oh and if it was the MAT then you can just prepare by yourself for heaven's sake! there are past papers on the oxford maths department website
        No private tuition on the Oxford website though, is there? No mock exams and prep classes organised by your private school.
        Offline

        9
        ReputationRep:
        (Original post by xRosieMx)
        Well done you.
        Plus don't you think you might be viewing through rose-tinted spectacles seeing as you have been offered a place?
        And yeah u need more than tuition to get in, but BOY does it help! A

        And FYI i really mean it... the beds were nasty so I'm kinda glad i got rejected tbh cos i know i would have found it hard to resist had i got in.
        (Original post by xRosieMx)
        No private tuition on the Oxford website though, is there? No mock exams and prep classes organised by your private school.

        Cringe, I really don't think tuition helps. I'm sure you will get into a really good uni though
       
       
       
    • See more of what you like on The Student Room

      You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

    • Poll
      Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
      Useful resources
      Uni match

      Applying to uni?

      Our tool will help you find the perfect course

      Articles:

      Debate and current affairs guidelinesDebate and current affairs wiki

      Quick link:

      Educational debate unanswered threads

      Groups associated with this forum:

      View associated groups
    • See more of what you like on The Student Room

      You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

    • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

      Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

      Quick reply
      Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.