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Israeli/Palestinian someone please explain to me. Watch

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    (Original post by WhereIsMyMind)
    Pfft. The day Israelis stop defending themselves is the day Israel seizes to exist.
    is that supporting what i'm saying or trying to destroy it?
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    (Original post by jamesman13)
    it amazes me how influential Pallywood is in convincing the world that deaths in a war are called civillian deaths in any war, except if israel is involved in which case its called 'genocide'
    I eyes and ears..i dont need convincing.Palestne don't bomb Israel children.
    America and Isreal are a killing a whole nation just for fun.
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    is that supporting what i'm saying or trying to destroy it?
    It depends on your view point.

    Yes, to a certain extent, the retaliation of the Israeli forces can be considered excessive, but it's no way on the same levels as the holocaust. For one, Israel isn't denying anyone right to life, like Hitler and his cronies did.

    However, as much as I would love peace and stability in the region, it simply isn't possible nor viable for Israel to lower their guard. For one, its neighbours are propped up and somewhat controlled by the Saudis and Iran who consider Israel a threat - the second Israel does, there will be no more Israel.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    So few British died during the Blitz relative to the number of Germans. Howcome you continued the war for years after the blitz ended? You should have stopped the war and left the Germans in peace once the number of German casualties equalled those of the British, because, as you said, war is just a mathematical equasion

    *Sarcasm off*
    I didn't say it was just a mathematical equation, at any point. What I am saying is that the numbers are UNNECESSARILY disproportionate, when you look at the situation as a whole. It doesn't make you sound particularly smart or help get your point across when you misunderstand someone's point and get all sarcy like a little know it all.
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    I eyes and ears..i dont need convincing.Palestne don't bomb Israel children.
    America and Isreal are a killing a whole nation just for fun.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Etzion_massacre
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadassa...onvoy_massacre

    In fact just go here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...date_Palestine

    And sort the list by "responsible party".

    This is not to mention the six day war initiated by several Arab countries. I mean the whole reason Israel are in the West Bank etc is because those Arab countries lost the war they started and now twist it to make Israel look like war hungry monsters when the truth is quite the opposite.
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    Oh man what world are you living in? The Israeli-Palestianian Conflict began in late 19th century mate. You should probably read about it!
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    Points to understand:

    - There are thousands if not hundreds of thousands of illegal Arab immigrants living in illegal settlements in Israel yet you never hear anything about these. In fact Arab growth has been greater than Jewish growth in Jerusalem while Arab building permits were handed out at a similar rate to those of Jews.
    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_co...&x_article=397

    - In large the "occupation" you see today is not the CAUSE of the conflict but a mere result of Arab instigated wars.

    - Israel has demolished illegal settlements and yes I agree that they should refrain from building anymore. However since they acquired certain territory in a defensive war some settlements are legal.

    - Arabs and Arab countries have a long history of initiating violence against Jews and Israel (see big story below) hence Israels hard line approach regarding their defense.

    - Palestine has passed up plenty of opportunities to close a peace deal in which Israel would have accepted.

    - Palestine have elected a terrorist organization which has recently stated that it will NEVER recognize Israel. How can peace ever be achieved with people like this running Palestine?

    - Israel can't possibly accept 67 borders for their own safety. At it's thinnest point Israel would be something like 10 miles wide. Suicide.

    - Historically there is no such thing as Palestinian people. They are not at all related to Philistines or Canaanites and instead are mostly Jordanian (also a newish state). See this quote from a former PLO leader:

    The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.

    "For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

    - Zuheir Mohsen

    - Palestine is pretty much a proxy for other larger Arab countries to act through

    - Arab/Israeli tensions are pretty much ancient

    - The British Mandate which was unassailable said they can legally postpone Jewish settlement should it be in practical at the time. They would have settled in what is parts of or all of what we call Jordan now anyway. Does Jordan even claim the West Bank officially? Pretty sure it considered res nullius after British withdrawal.

    - If not for Christian/Muslim etc invaders Israel would have officially existed for thousands of years. They don't need the British or UN to officially give them the nation that was stolen from them.

    - The conflict has a relatively low casualty rate yet received 200+ resolutions from the UN. See here:



    Copy pasting from a different post I made:


    Holocaust? That's but one of many atrocities committed against Jewish people since the inception of Israel/Judah in the Levant. Since then various civilizations conquered, dispersed and persecuted them. Even when they had respite under Byzantine/Christian/Islamic rule of Spain they were largely second class citizens.

    They've suffered continuous slavery, expulsion, pogrom, forced conversion etc. This isn't on a small scale either. During the relatively short respite for Jews under a couple of rulers they were still suffering largely elsewhere.

    They were forced to abandon their ancient and religious homeland or face death/forced conversion. Everywhere they immigrated to they eventually had to leave all the way up until the huge Jewish migration to America but many Jews still existed within an extremely hostile Europe. This is when Zionism really came about or at least modern Zionism. The Jews in Europe started discussing and planning the re-establishment (not establishment) in their rightful national and religious homeland. By this point how can you criticize some of the most ill-treated people throughout history (for wanting their homeland back after being for the best part "subjugated" (your word to describe the current situation) by various invaders?

    Now come the world war and collapse of the Ottoman Empire the British came to rule over Palestine and promised to create a Jewish homeland = giving them BACK their homeland. Many, many Jewish returned to their newly established ancient homeland much to the disdain or the Arabs who saw fit to squat (another word commonly used by pro Palestine people) there while the Jewish people were generally forcibly removed. The Arabs started a horrendous campaign of terror and murder to the point where the Jews had lost confidence in the British (who were going back on their original promise) and decided to take matters into their own hands as they should to avoid history from repeating itself.

    <Insert Holocaust>

    Now various Jewish resistance movements unified and starting taking revenge upon Arab attacks (damn those evil unprovoked Jews). Even more Jews arrived without British approval (something which they couldn't rely on anyway). Eventually the British let the UN decide the fate of this matter.

    The UN decided is would be best to appease the Arabs and create an Arab state and a Jewish state. The Jewish leadership accepted this yet the Arabs did not and began to attack Jewish settlements leading to the Arab-Israeli war of 48. Jews effectively sought independence from the British and were attacked by Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan. Eventually armistice was reached but several conflicts happened later for example the Six-Day war in which Israel defeated Jordan, Syria and Egypt and subsequently took control of some of the places they had occupied such as the Gaza Strip, West bank East Jerusalem etc. To exemplify how humiliating this defeat was many Egyptian stragglers who tried to return home (many with the aid of Israel) were either killed or contained as not to show their population how badly they were defeated. The conflict in Lebanon which is quite recent started largely because of Hezbollah launching rockets at Israeli towns and attacking patrols. Israel responded with force and given history they were well within their right to do so.

    Fast forward to now and you have the confrontational and defeated Arabs (who pretty much started every war after the armistice) absolutely despising Israel. Many of the things that happened during these wars are focal points when discussing the whole conflict. Oh the tyrannical Jews right? The whole situation feels like somebody being ran out of their house by yobs who subsequently squat in the house then when the original owners return and oust them the squatters attack and receive the sympathy of the entire neighborhood. You (and many, many other people) lack so much perspective and instead ignorantly pander to ridiculous anti-Israeli propaganda.

    Bottom line:

    Yes Israel is guilty of building illegal settlements and carrying out horrible attacks but the amount of propaganda and bias they have to put up with is disgusting especially in the face of other conflicts such as that in Darfur. The only side of the story we see is the Arab/Islamic apologist/Ignorant leftist version which can't possibly be taken on face value based on the facts of the six day war alone.

    People who are defending Israel are not defending those individuals that murdered innocent people they are defending a historic group of people who have been **** on so much that suffering is practically their creed. They are defending a group of people who have largely been failed by the rest of the world. A group of people who are sticking up for themselves in a hostile region which holds incomprehensibly deep hatred for them.

    I do sympathize with the people who have suffered in Palestine. Intrigued by this tyrannical force of evil portrayed by you people I took it upon myself to look into Israels side of the story and ended up severely disappointed. In fact I found it disturbing just how much **** Israel gets when you consider the facts.
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    so that gives them a right to do genocide? you talk sense..


    There was no genocide in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In fact, it is one of the conflicts with the lowest casualty rates in the 20th century.

    what you're basically saying is "Palestine lost the war to Israel they all deserve to die.(as a country who has been complaining from holcaust for YEARS

    No, I didn't, but I did say the Jews had a right to defend themselves and fight back.
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    (Original post by BoxesAndBangles)
    I didn't say it was just a mathematical equation, at any point. What I am saying is that the numbers are UNNECESSARILY disproportionate, when you look at the situation as a whole. It doesn't make you sound particularly smart or help get your point across when you misunderstand someone's point and get all sarcy like a little know it all.


    That does 'unnecessarily disproportionate' even mean? You are speaking of Israeli victims vs Palestinian. What do you want Israel to do - to enter Gaza and kill the exact number of Palestinians they killed in Israel? What possible positive outcome will that have, for anybody?

    Understand, this is NOT a revenge or vendetta or some frigging tribal feud. This a military operation/operations which has a definite goal of stopping Hamas terrorizing Israeli civilians and the military effort is PROPORTIONAL exclusively to these goals. I don't understand where you people are taking with this proportional nonsense from?? Like what, the eight years long war in Afghanistan with all the deaths and destruction it caused was proportional to the 3000 Americans lost their lives during 9/11 (let alone Iraq)? The amount of Germans you killed (civilians) was proportional to V2 rockets fired on you by the Germans (let alone American civilian casualties caused by Germans, oh wait...there were none)? What America did to Japan was proportional to Pearl Harbor (and that's even excluding Hiroshima)?

    When in history has any war been fought with the sole aim of being "proportional" to one's own casualties? If wars were fought like that, there simply never would be peace, only endless exchange of attacks having sole purpose of damaging your enemy proportionally to the previous attack...
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    Palestine aka 'screw-you-we-were-here-first' land.
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    (Original post by Axes)
    That does 'unnecessarily disproportionate' even mean? You are speaking of Israeli victims vs Palestinian. What do you want Israel to do - to enter Gaza and kill the exact number of Palestinians they killed in Israel? What possible positive outcome will that have, for anybody?


    When in history has any war been fought with the sole aim of being "proportional" to one's own casualties? If wars were fought like that, there simply never would be peace, only endless exchange of attacks having sole purpose of damaging your enemy proportionally to the previous attack...
    I didn't say it had to be equally matched, what I said is that the '''retaliation''' (I don't really like calling it that, but for arguments sake) was UNNECESSECARILY so WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION. I mean seriously, do you believe they had to do all of THAT to get a result? And why are Palestine so angry in the first place anyway? Did Palestine start it all? Are you supporting what happened ? Don't Israel like to hold themselves us up as the 'civilized ones'?

    Is it fair that Israel are allowed an army but Palestine aren't? Or that Palestinians aren't allowed to travel? Or that they've not been allowed resources into their land? And why are Israel allowed to retaliate but Palestine aren't???

    I respect your opinion (as a human, but not politcally) so please don't try to simplify mine just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I'm stupid. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying in a war everyone has to be killed tit for tat, what we're saying is Israel in this situation doesn't need to kill that many people - it is totally pointless and unfair. If you support it then good for you.
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    (Original post by BoxesAndBangles)
    I didn't say it had to be equally matched, what I said is that the '''retaliation''' (I don't really like calling it that, but for arguments sake) was UNNECESSECARILY so WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE SITUATION. I mean seriously, do you believe they had to do all of THAT to get a result? And why are Palestine so angry in the first place anyway? Did Palestine start it all? Are you supporting what happened ? Don't Israel like to hold themselves us up as the 'civilized ones'?


    You asked alot of questions, so let me answer them one at a time. I disagree with the term 'retaliation' since it implies giving answer to an attack for the sake of it. The operation (I assume you meant cast lead) was launched after years in which tens of thousands of Israeli's largely lived in bunkers and whole cities did not function. The point of the operation was not to 'retaliate' but to end the threat of northern Israel. Hamas had to be hit hard enough to know that Israel can collapse its regime with ease if it so choses to. Unfortunately, Hamas has allways utilized tactics of maximizing the amount of its own civilians put in harms way in order to use the international community as a weapon. Schools and mosqs were boobytrapped, private buildings used as launch pads for rockets, and even the basement of the Shifa hospital in Gaza was used as the HQ of Hamas's leadership. Despite this, the IDF would warn civilians of any impending attack on a specific building, in order to give them time to get away. This tactic also warned Hamas's targetted militants themselves, and they in many cases used this to either escape, or call on civilians to go to the roof of their buildings in order to prevent an IDF strike. Add to that the sheer density of Gaza, and you can see in what impossible position Hamas put us in.

    Despite all that, you will have a hard time finding an urban war with less civilian casualties both as a total number and as a percent of the total casualties. Yes, we see ourselves as the civilized one's, or we would not have done our utmost to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza. Doing more would entail not defending ourselves at all.


    Your other questions, regarding who started it? Depends on who you ask. It's one of the most multi-faceted, shades of gray conflict in history. There are conflicting narratives and in each period, one side might be more to blame than the other.


    Is it fair that Israel are allowed an army but Palestine aren't? Or that Palestinians aren't allowed to travel? Or that they've not been allowed resources into their land? And why are Israel allowed to retaliate but Palestine aren't???

    First of all, the militants in Gaza have a specific goal that is the destruction of Israel. They state it daily, indoctrinate their kids, and refuse to accept the mere possibility of compromise or peace with Israel. For them, they will fight untill Israel is eliminated. Naturally with such people there is very little room for good willed negotiation. Thus, when Hamas violently took over the strip in 2007, and kept launching thousands of rockets into Israel, the only way you could say it was 'defending' itself was if you claim that Israel's mere existance is an attack. As a result, heavy sanctions were placed on Gaza, similar to the sanctions on Saddam's Iraq or North Korea. They are allowed resources, naturally, or they would have starved, but those resources are limited to humanitarian aid. Lately, much of the sanctions have been lifted, though, as a result of the diplomatic backlash of the Marmara incident, plus Hamas playing the good boy in Gaza and preventing rocket fire, the latter being a direct result of Operation Cast lead (the gaza war). Will they be allowed an army? If they agree to peacefull negotiation, a peace agreement is pushed through, and they recognize Israel's right to exist and reneg on any future territorial demands, then sure. Otherwise? Naturally not.


    I respect your opinion (as a human, but not politcally) so please don't try to simplify mine just because you don't agree with me, doesn't mean I'm stupid. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying in a war everyone has to be killed tit for tat, what we're saying is Israel in this situation doesn't need to kill that many people - it is totally pointless and unfair. If you support it then good for you.[

    I apologize if I insulted you. But put yourself in my place: Had you been a British individual in WW2, and the same rhetoric was directed at you, ie: "The blitz is over, why are you demanding Germany's surrender, why are you continuing the war? It is totally unproportional", you would think me a bit naive, right? You would reply to me that the proportion of civilian casualties is not the only measure of whether to engage in fighting or not, especially against an enemy like that.. That action needs to continue to remove the threat off your country.
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    (Original post by WhereIsMyMind)
    It depends on your view point.

    Yes, to a certain extent, the retaliation of the Israeli forces can be considered excessive, but it's no way on the same levels as the holocaust. For one, Israel isn't denying anyone right to life, like Hitler and his cronies did.

    However, as much as I would love peace and stability in the region, it simply isn't possible nor viable for Israel to lower their guard. For one, its neighbours are propped up and somewhat controlled by the Saudis and Iran who consider Israel a threat - the second Israel does, there will be no more Israel.
    With reading wt you wrote i can see it is to destroy.I guess it depends on your viewpoint too...

    so that's the excuse?displaying Genocide as defence?...
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    (Original post by Axes)
    There was no genocide in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. In fact, it is one of the conflicts with the lowest casualty rates in the 20th century.

    No, I didn't, but I did say the Jews had a right to defend themselves and fight back.
    Just please don't go there.As a result of the whole world backing up ISraels Violence only a tiny amount of casuaties aredisplayed on T.v such as BBC,CNN worldwide one's..we even studied this at school.
    THere are MUCH more casualties and CIVILLIANS..NOT just soldiers..
    Not That Israel care about the numbers..

    see that's what i'm saying you choose to cover up genocide by saying it is defence..

    The only Reason Israel is getting away with this is beacuse America doesn't care.They get money out of selling guns blablabla..
    When Russia tried to even start on Georgia i remember America's reaction perfectly..


    I have seen 2 heartless cuntries and 1 dictator:America,Israel,Hitler

    as a result of America Bullying slamic countries so much (Which Israel is now doing too) BinLadin and his terrorist group formed.

    It's so wonderful that When Muslim gorups attack countries its terrorism but when you do it it's "defence"
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    Just please don't go there.As a result of the whole world backing up ISraels Violence only a tiny amount of casuaties aredisplayed on T.v such as BBC,CNN worldwide one's..we even studied this at school.

    Less Palestinian civilians died in 120 years of conflict than in 2 months of the last Sri-Lanken offensive in 2008. Assad killed 30,000 Syrians in three weeks, twice the number of Palestinians killed in 120 years of conflict.


    see that's what i'm saying you choose to cover up genocide by saying it is defence..

    If it's a genocide it's probably the worst genocide in history. The Palestinian population is skyrocketing and the mortality rates in Gaza are lower than in neighboring countries, even Turkey. Don't presume to use words when you have no idea what they mean.


    When Russia tried to even start on Georgia i remember America's reaction perfectly..

    Russia roled over Georgia and nothing stopped her.
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    (Original post by Menakshelatte)
    With reading wt you wrote i can see it is to destroy.I guess it depends on your viewpoint too...

    so that's the excuse?displaying Genocide as defence?...
    How can it possibly be genocide? Genocide implies that it is the wish of the Israeli govt. to wipe out Gaza, and its whole population. However, that's simply not true - you and I both know that.

    In the case of casualties and fatalities resulting from the actions of the likes of IDF, it's not genocide, purely because the IDF don't go out blitzing cities/towns etc with the sole aim of killing as many as possible. Innocent civilians have regrettably died due to the fact that Hamas launches its attacks from makeshift bases in civilian areas - schools, hospitals, and marketplaces. If you play with fire, you're going to get burnt.

    Believe it or not, the civilian population of Gaza are free to live their lives - if Israel was committing genocide, this wouldn't be the case.

    As for the references to the UN earlier; it's farcical. I can't quite recall the number of 'resolutions' that have passed in relation to the situation in Israel/Gaza. Whereas , real crimes against humanity are being committed in the likes of China and Iran with no intervention whatsoever.
 
 
 
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