Bring back the death penalty!
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Original post by Travis1
So true! The murder never gave the option to the victim, so why should authority?
Because thats the difference between a murderer and a civilised person.
Original post by Ape Gone Insane
You're going on the assumption that all convicted criminals are actually guilty. Such a system could end up killing a number of people who did not actually commit a crime. Also, killing someone does not equate to murder.
Ian Huntley or Peter Sutcliffe or the late Harold Shipman are not going to suddenly turn out to be innocent...
The majority of the general public think these people should have been hung, and there is no good reason why they have not been hung, but our modern politicians and judges don't even pretend to represent the wishes of the people who elect them any more. Our criminal justice system has rotted away with left-wing judges and politicians who believe that criminals are the real victims.
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Travis1
I'm generally outraged and disgusted with the British justice system and how they treat criminals in this day and age. You get people like Ian Huntley who go out and kill two girls who were enthusiastic young girls enjoying life. What is society coming to these days? If someone does such a crime they should be sentenced to death or in my opinion literally spend the rest of their life in prison without the possible chance of parole. I also think that the death penalty would prevent some people committing their crimes, not a lot, but some. I wish we had the same justice system as Texas, if you kill someone there whilst stealing their possessions you instantly get charged with capital murder and therefore sentenced to death. Anyone agree? If so share your views.
You could argue that in countries where the death penalty exists, there is still crime. America for example. No one can argue that there is a real problem with the justice system. Prisons are supposed to rehabilitate and re-integrate people into civilized society. Clearly, by the number of repeat offenders, this is not working. The question is, what can be changed?
The death penalty may deter some but for the real "crazies" it would make no difference. The problem (in my view) stems from youth and a childs perceived lack of opportunity in life, which would result in turning to crime. Of course this only really applies to theft/drug related crimes.
As for you example of Ian Huntley, he is a despicable man. Has he ever displayed remorse for his actions? I don't actually know what to do with people like that. There is a real argument for "an eye for an eye" ergo, you kill someone you will be killed. In cases like this i could quite clearly see why someone would want the death penalty reinstated. You would then have to decide where to draw the line.
What if a person killed another in an accidental car crash?
How about in a school yard fight by a punch to the face?
Or an abortion?
Or euthanasia?
It would throw up countless grey areas for judges to consider, would it not?
Original post by tripleeagle
I seriously doubt this claim - any evidence please? 
From what I've heard it costs more to put a child in Eton for a year than to look after a criminal. SPS.gov.uk state that the "average cost per prisoner place in 2008-2009 was £31,106".
If we're talking about a life sentence (say, 40 years) at the average rate (without taking into account the fact that it must cost much more for high-security threats) then that's about £1.25million. Does it really cost that much to kill someone?
If it does, I'm getting my shotgun out and I'll be running a great business in no time
Well if the person is a murderer then I don't think they should be allowed to decide whether the victim should have lived or died.
From what I've heard it costs more to put a child in Eton for a year than to look after a criminal. SPS.gov.uk state that the "average cost per prisoner place in 2008-2009 was £31,106".If we're talking about a life sentence (say, 40 years) at the average rate (without taking into account the fact that it must cost much more for high-security threats) then that's about £1.25million. Does it really cost that much to kill someone?
If it does, I'm getting my shotgun out and I'll be running a great business in no time
Well if the person is a murderer then I don't think they should be allowed to decide whether the victim should have lived or died.
(This is all based on the US, thought it would be best way to compare) Its been recorded that in New York it takes $23 million to execute a prisoner - and also "Prisons cost taxpayers more than $32 billion a year. Every year that an inmate spends in prison costs $22,000. . The cost of a life term averages $1.5 million. The last point, i was questioning the precedence that it gives the state, if the death penalty is instated. http://www.heartsandminds.org/prisons/facts.htm
There is also the point that it is not a proven deterrent as such - the 1996 Amnesty report showed no link between the introduction of the death penalty and a fall in murder/etc, As well as relatively more recent study (2005), as i qoute
"We find that more aggressive capital punishment regimes have higher murder
rates, even after controlling for several deterrence and socioeconomic factors. In fact, we
show that the amount by which the homicide rate is exceeded increases monotonically
with the aggressiveness of the regime, with the greatest difference arising in the most
aggressive states. Nor is there evidence that the increased use of capital punishment over
the past 20 years has had a discernable deterrent effect" (http://www.chrisherbst.net/PDFs/C._Herbst_Capital_Punishment_Paper.pdf)
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by Time Tourist
Ian Huntley or Peter Sutcliffe or the late Harold Shipman are not going to suddenly turn out to be innocent...
that still doesn't give the state the right to end their lives though, irrespective of what they've done.
tripleeagle: the death penalty costs considerably more than life sentences because of the long stretch of prison involved (often comparable to that of a life sentence) and the massive costs in the courts and various appeals processes (since we want to make sure that in this flawed moral system we want to at least kill the guilty rather than some innocents as well).
Original post by tez.
that still doesn't give the state the right to end their lives though, irrespective of what they've done.
You can't just assume that as if it was an obvious truth, you have to argue for it.
Our society is the strange one, almost all societies in the past and ours up until very, very recently have decided that death is the just punishment for certain crimes.
Original post by .Ali.
Lol yeah I got bullied by chavs because they said I speak like a 'posh prick'. 
They also destroyed a lot of my stuff because "you can afford to buy more". So yeah, total idiots. I wouldn't say it's snobby to hate chavs - I mean come on, look at all the problems they cause!
No, I don't know what that's like. Surely though they'd see how everyone else lives and realise that they can either become like their family, or make something of themselves? Crime will only make it worse. And once they commit a crime, that's it, they've lost their humanity. If they truly felt so sad by seeing all the violence, why would they inflict it on another human being? Oh yeah that's right, because they're scum.
Possibly, and I would agree that the environment someone is in can affect their mood and wellbeing, but not to the extent of turning a normal human into a crazed axe murderer.
They also destroyed a lot of my stuff because "you can afford to buy more". So yeah, total idiots. I wouldn't say it's snobby to hate chavs - I mean come on, look at all the problems they cause!No, I don't know what that's like. Surely though they'd see how everyone else lives and realise that they can either become like their family, or make something of themselves? Crime will only make it worse. And once they commit a crime, that's it, they've lost their humanity. If they truly felt so sad by seeing all the violence, why would they inflict it on another human being? Oh yeah that's right, because they're scum.
Possibly, and I would agree that the environment someone is in can affect their mood and wellbeing, but not to the extent of turning a normal human into a crazed axe murderer.
Well im sorry for how you were treated but this is probably a very small percentage of people who would act like this and honestly people find a person and if hes sensitive or weak enough theyll pick on him for anything. When I was 14 I went to a new school and because I spoke three languages I was mocked for my race and how I spoke but this had a bit to do with me being sensitive as well.
Also as someone who has been rich in the past and then went on to be relatively poor Ive felt a lot of resentment towards people who were born with all the things I have to/had to work really hard for, like it didnt seem fair and made me angry. I never acted on this anger though.
Well yeah some people do, but a lot of what they see will become engrained into themselves subconconsciously, some people find their alchoholic parents disgusting so decide not to drink again but probably a lot become alchoholics as well. Crime is such an arbitrary thing in my opinion. I do not respect the law. I adhere to it because I know there is consequences for not obeying it and most of the time it harms someone but I dont have any respect for some random politician telling me how to live my life. I dont smoke weed personally but thats illegal when many claim it does less than alchohol and 70 years ago alchohol was illegal too. How is it that the owner of topshop dodges enough tax everyyear to fund the cut in rise in student fees but when someone who has no money does something to gain money when in london for instance its almost impossible to find a job.
If they saw all the violence, they would become more violent its a mental thing, someone hits you and you might hit them back then you continue to act that way or maybe not, you have a lot of negative emotions and its just automatic not saying I do. But my mum was quite abusive which lead to me being abusive back to her.
Original post by Rational Paradox
(This is all based on the US, thought it would be best way to compare) Its been recorded that in New York it takes $23 million to execute a prisoner
Wow I'm extremely surprised by the cost! Seeing as I don't really have an opinion on the death penalty as of yet, I'm not going to argue any further but I've got to say that a shotgun would be much cheaper!
Original post by Rational Paradox
There is also the point that it is not a proven deterrent as such - the 1996 Amnesty report showed no link between the introduction of the death penalty and a fall in murder/etc, As well as relatively more recent study (2005)
Yes - I read about this in Freakonomics or The Undercover Economist, I think. I'm not too surprised, but if I were to argue for the death penalty, that wouldn't be my first point :P
Original post by Teveth
The death sentence is the opium of the vengeful, low IQ masses.
Like my father, who was invited to join British Mensa?
(edited 13 years ago)
Original post by anfieldred07
What if a person killed another in an accidental car crash?
How about in a school yard fight by a punch to the face?
Or an abortion?
Or euthanasia?
It would throw up countless grey areas for judges to consider, would it not?
What if a person killed another in an accidental car crash?
How about in a school yard fight by a punch to the face?
Or an abortion?
Or euthanasia?
It would throw up countless grey areas for judges to consider, would it not?
1) That's fine, as long as it's accidental. If he was drunk or driving like a complete toss pot then punishment is needed, but not the death penalty.
2) It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter which capital punishment is too extreme, however a long prison sentence (at least 15 years behind bars) is needed
3) With the right circumstances I believe it's ok, for instance if the mother is very young, if the mother was raped, if the mother was mentally incapable. I could keep going on
4) It's a cowards way out, but if the person want's it that much then let them have it, at least they're doing it in a controlled enviroment, not jumping off a motorway or into a moving train.
Punch to the face can be murder under UK law, if it results in death.
Original post by Travis1
1) That's fine, as long as it's accidental. If he was drunk or driving like a complete toss pot then punishment is needed, but not the death penalty.
2) It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter which capital punishment is too extreme, however a long prison sentence (at least 15 years behind bars) is needed
3) With the right circumstances I believe it's ok, for instance if the mother is very young, if the mother was raped, if the mother was mentally incapable. I could keep going on
4) It's a cowards way out, but if the person want's it that much then let them have it, at least they're doing it in a controlled enviroment, not jumping off a motorway or into a moving train.
2) It wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter which capital punishment is too extreme, however a long prison sentence (at least 15 years behind bars) is needed
3) With the right circumstances I believe it's ok, for instance if the mother is very young, if the mother was raped, if the mother was mentally incapable. I could keep going on
4) It's a cowards way out, but if the person want's it that much then let them have it, at least they're doing it in a controlled enviroment, not jumping off a motorway or into a moving train.
Punching someone in the face and thus accidentally killing them and getting 15 years in prison for it! ARE YOU TAKING DRUGS?
Original post by Travis1
I'm generally outraged and disgusted with the British justice system and how they treat criminals in this day and age. You get people like Ian Huntley who go out and kill two girls who were enthusiastic young girls enjoying life. What is society coming to these days? If someone does such a crime they should be sentenced to death or in my opinion literally spend the rest of their life in prison without the possible chance of parole. I also think that the death penalty would prevent some people committing their crimes, not a lot, but some. I wish we had the same justice system as Texas, if you kill someone there whilst stealing their possessions you instantly get charged with capital murder and therefore sentenced to death. Anyone agree? If so share your views.
Murder for murder?
Bloody hypocrites.
I'm actually shocked by the number of people here who are in favour of bringing back the death penalty. I knew there were a lot of right-wing people on TSR, but didn't think everyone was so reactionary! Almost all the evidence suggests that the death penalty is pointless. The only arguments to support it are grounded either in misconceptions about the prison system or a desire for revenge.
Original post by gethsemane342
Punch to the face can be murder under UK law, if it results in death.
I'm sorry but a single punch to the face wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter as you don't go out to murder someone just by punching them once.
Original post by d123
I'm actually shocked by the number of people here who are in favour of bringing back the death penalty. I knew there were a lot of right-wing people on TSR, but didn't think everyone was so reactionary! Almost all the evidence suggests that the death penalty is pointless. The only arguments to support it are grounded either in misconceptions about the prison system or a desire for revenge.
The death penalty is good for one thing, and that one thing is to finally bring closure to the families who have suffered in they're traumatic experiences, they can finally try to put it all behind them knowing that the person who killed they're loved one is gone, gone forever.
I'm not so much bothered about the death penalty, don't get me wrong I would happily see it in place and for people to be put on it. I'm more for a better justice system, the way you kill someone and serve 12-14 years is outrageous, you should spend the rest of your life in prison, suffering, rotting in the horrible conditions. And paedophiles as well, they're sickening how they sexually assault young children, emotionally scaring them for the rest of their life and yet they get a pathetic sentence, and are released not so many years later roaming the streets praying on the young, weak and vulnerable. I'm sickened.
Original post by Travis1
I'm sorry but a single punch to the face wouldn't be murder, it would be manslaughter as you don't go out to murder someone just by punching them once.
You punch someone with the intention to break their nose.
They stumble backwards and hit their head on something, thus killing them.
Congratulations, under UK law, you have committed murder. I hope you enjoy your life sentence. See the case of Rahman [2008] and numerous other homicide cases if you still don't believe me that murder in the UK includes the intention to cause GBH.
Original post by Travis1
The death penalty is good for one thing, and that one thing is to finally bring closure to the families who have suffered in they're traumatic experiences, they can finally try to put it all behind them knowing that the person who killed they're loved one is gone, gone forever.
I'm not so much bothered about the death penalty, don't get me wrong I would happily see it in place and for people to be put on it. I'm more for a better justice system, the way you kill someone and serve 12-14 years is outrageous, you should spend the rest of your life in prison, suffering, rotting in the horrible conditions. And paedophiles as well, they're sickening how they sexually assault young children, emotionally scaring them for the rest of their life and yet they get a pathetic sentence, and are released not so many years later roaming the streets praying on the young, weak and vulnerable. I'm sickened.
I'm not so much bothered about the death penalty, don't get me wrong I would happily see it in place and for people to be put on it. I'm more for a better justice system, the way you kill someone and serve 12-14 years is outrageous, you should spend the rest of your life in prison, suffering, rotting in the horrible conditions. And paedophiles as well, they're sickening how they sexually assault young children, emotionally scaring them for the rest of their life and yet they get a pathetic sentence, and are released not so many years later roaming the streets praying on the young, weak and vulnerable. I'm sickened.
If, God forbid, any of my relatives were ever murdered, I wouldn't want to see the person responsible killed for it. My morals don't go out the window just because I've been personally affected by something. I would far rather see the person rehabilitated than pointlessly executed. I'm aware I'm clearly in a minority here, but if I'm grieving over the death of a loved one, I wouldn't want anyone else to die as a result of that, no matter what they've done.
And again, referring to your second paragraph, I honestly believe that rehabilitation is the way forward. It's far far better for someone to serve 5 years, then be able to leave prison and become a reformed and productive member of society than to rot away in prison with no chance to ever make a positive difference. Sometimes rehabilitation doesn't work, that's true but if more were invested in it that would be a far more desirable option. What's the point of someone rotting away in prison when they could be making a positive difference? Revenge brings society nowhere.
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