obi_adorno_kenobi
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#61
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#61
(Original post by Rakas21)
I believe NI to be a giant black hole but as it is so economically insignificant and civil war took place for decades i don't object to its sovereignty.

Scotland i believe to a special case and would consider further devolution of powers however i believe that giving them political power was the worst thing any PM has ever done, it has simply given nationalists license to breed.
I see. That still doesn't really answer any of the points I've raised and is full of stock Tory phraseology. Devolution isn't a nationalist teleology. Devolution is what you make of it and is a process not a thing. Scotland is a special case. Northern Ireland is a special case. England and Wales are not special cases? Why?
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Rakas21
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#62
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#62
(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
I see. That still doesn't really answer any of the points I've raised and is full of stock Tory phraseology. Devolution isn't a nationalist teleology. Devolution is what you make of it and is a process not a thing. Scotland is a special case. Northern Ireland is a special case. England and Wales are not special cases? Why?
You are correct that devolution is not inherently nationalist and can have benefits however in my view it depends on what powers are devolved. You give Scotland power over tax and infrastructure in the first place and i think that most people would be happy, you withhold tax but give them institutional power and that i believe only wets their appetite and they want more without giving anything back.

Technically England is a special case, i just view Wales as nothing more than an English region.
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obi_adorno_kenobi
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#63
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#63
(Original post by Rakas21)
Technically England is a special case, i just view Wales as nothing more than an English region.
This would funny if it wasn't for the fact you're deadly serious. The pity, really, is that you have failed to justify your stance on any level save for "I believe" and "I think". A bit of evidence-based reasoning would be nice, especially if you're intent on dismissing reality.
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ByronicHero
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#64
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#64
Let's just give NI back to Ireland and call Wales 'Western England' and Scotland 'Northern England' - I feel this is is the best way to keep everyone who matters happy.
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Rakas21
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#65
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#65
(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
The Acts of Union which combined the non-crown lands of Wales with the Kingdom of England (properly, the crown) took place over the course of 7 years after 1536. It has little to do with the formation of the Kingdom of Great Britain following the Act of Union with Scotland in 1707. The disposition of the last of the native Welsh princes took place during the reign of Edward I and was completed in the 1290s and the idea of a Principality of Wales (which continues to be used as a mark of Wales' lesser status) was created by Edward as a raspberry to native desire for independence. Prior to that there had been Welsh princes and Welsh kings. The oldest book of law in Wales, that of Hywel the Good, relates not to a principality but to the Kingdom of Deheubarth. Medieval status, indeed.
Ultimately it is just my opinion based on the fact that i see Wales as being no more deserving than Yorkshire but by your own admission Wales was subsumed very early on above and has only retained status because the English crown threw them a bone and a nutty politician at some point decided that they should have their own powers.
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obi_adorno_kenobi
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#66
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#66
(Original post by Rakas21)
Ultimately it is just my opinion based on the fact that i see Wales as being no more deserving than Yorkshire but by your own admission Wales was subsumed very early on above and has only retained status because the English crown threw them a bone and a nutty politician at some point decided that they should have their own powers.
Alright lets run with this shall we. Wales' status as a region/nation distinct from the rest of England remained cultural rather than legal up until the passage, in 1881, of the Sunday Closing (Wales) Act. Between 1543 and 1881, therefore, the idea of Wales derived more from the language and the emergence of strong nonconformist religious adherence than anything. Wales had a higher rate of literacy than England reaching near total levels by the late-eighteenth century as a result of that nonconformist ethos. The law in 1881 was the result of Gladstone's government, not the crown throwing a bone (as you so eloquently put it). After 1881, and under the influence of Irish disestablishment, the next great legal cause for Wales was disestablishment of the Church which was finally achieved in 1920 after nearly 40 years of wrangle. Tell me, is the Church of England disestablished? The "nutty" politician that you speak of was actually a Conservative. It was the Conservative Party that created a Minister of State for Wales. Yes, the Labour Party created the Secretary of State for Wales in 1964 and the Wales Office as well but the Tories are just as culpable (as you would have it) for devolution of power from Westminster to Cardiff. As I intimated above, Welsh education has always been divergent from England. Not only because of the language matter but also because of the way education was funded. After 1894 local government reform, Welsh County Councils invested heavily in education providing county scholarships to go to the grammar school. The South Wales Miners' Federation also provided scholarships to go on to university making tertiary education far more accessible in Wales than it was in England (though less than it was in Scotland). Now, I'm happy to go into minute detail if you like but I suspect you won't.

The people of Wales are no more deserving than the people of Yorkshire, no, but they do have their own needs and wants that cannot be met by a distant parliament in London. I advocate devolution to all the regions of England too but that doesn't mean I would stand back and watch someone who has little grasp of the history denigrate the position of the Welsh people to their own self-determination.

In the end, Rakas, there was no crazy minister, there was no crown-thrown bone, there was a call for democratic representation and a realisation that different people do things in their own way.
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eff01
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#67
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#67
Mr Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the Chancellor for writing this budget. Clearly a lot of time has gone into it and I believe all members of the MHoC should take the time out and read it. I welcome the abolition of VAT and the increase in the Ground Tax, something I personally agree with.

However my agreement with the government ends here. At a time of high inflation, unemployment and no growth, I disagree with the chancellor’s proposal to freeze fuel duty until 2015. The reality on the ground is that petrol is too high. Instead of helping motorists by proposing a cut in fuel duty, the chancellor is saying that he is not concerned with their plight and is willing to freeze duty until 2015 despite the reality of the economy changing, after all, only today was the fear of the Labour Party confirmed when RL figs for the economy showed that the UK was in its longest double dip recession for 50 years.

I condemn the Chancellor’s unnecessary closing down of government departments. With the Olympic games only a few days away and the first Olympic matches taking place today only a Conservative chancellor could make the decision to close the department that was pivotal (RL) in bringing the games to the United Kingdom. The chancellor says that art can be better managed by the Arts Council, but I ask the chancellor what extra funding will he provide to the Arts Council to deal with the burden of a departmental closure. The chancellor states that media policy can be better dealt with by the DfBWPs, but Mr Speaker, we later discover that the chancellor is slashing the budget of the combined department. This closure symbolises a tory led coalition that has no interest in the culture of the United Kingdom and is not interested in the sporting achievements of our heroic RL athletes in this RL Olympic year! Members of this house I am baffled to why this outrageous step has been taken, that will only save £3billion?

The department closures continue, with the government closing down the department for equalities, this isn’t surprising after all the RL cabinet comprises of only four elected female MPs and no elected MPs from ethnic minorities, LGBT and Disabilities. I condemn this closure.

On the absorbing of the DfID into the FCO, I would like to ask the Chancellor what will be the new budget for the FCO? Isn’t it right to state that this government by closing the DfID has sent a signal to the international community, that TSRUK is not interested in the struggles and hardships of people living in developing countries, who struggle day and night to earn an honest wage which in many cases is less than $1 a day.

The chancellor has simply gone down the list of government departments and cut without thinking of the consequences or effects. I condemn the closure of the DECC, DfT and DEFRA. The chancellor wants to devolve these responsibilities to local government, but Mr Speaker, the chancellor is cutting the DCLG budget. How does the chancellor envisage local authorities to maintain their roads when he is cutting their budgets!?

I categorically condemn the closure of the Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland office. A party that did not in RL opposition support devolution is now, in power launching an attack on devolution. How can the public take seriously the comments of this government on the United Kingdom to stay united when they are cutting their representation in government!

Mr Speaker, the chancellor estimates that approximately 3000 people will be unemployed as a result of his reckless measures, however Mr Speaker I state to this house that the cost of the chancellor’s irresponsibility will be greater.

Mr Speaker, the chancellor’s budget is poorly thought-out, reckless and has placed thousands of jobs in jeopardy today. The nation has looked to the chancellor for hope and direction at this time of great difficultly, but has left feeling uncertain about their jobs and future. The chancellor has attacked motorists by freezing fuel duty until 2015, despite the UK being in the longest RL double dip recession and food prices continuing to increase. This budget says nothing about growth, investment and the future of our young people. The Chancellor is silent on the issues of education and growth and has instead sent out a message that the TSRUK does not care about the plight of millions at home and abroad. The chancellor has simply sought to take the burden of responsibility off his shoulders and place it on the shoulders of others. Mr Speaker, I do not support this reckless budget and urge other honourable members to do the same.
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Morgsie
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#68
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#68
(Original post by eff01)
Mr Speaker, first of all I would like to thank the Chancellor for writing this budget. Clearly a lot of time has gone into it and I believe all members of the MHoC should take the time out and read it. I welcome the abolition of VAT and the increase in the Ground Tax, something I personally agree with.

However my agreement with the government ends here. At a time of high inflation, unemployment and no growth, I disagree with the chancellor’s proposal to freeze fuel duty until 2015. The reality on the ground is that petrol is too high. Instead of helping motorists by proposing a cut in fuel duty, the chancellor is saying that he is not concerned with their plight and is willing to freeze duty until 2015 despite the reality of the economy changing, after all, only today was the fear of the Labour Party confirmed when RL figs for the economy showed that the UK was in its longest double dip recession for 50 years.

I condemn the Chancellor’s unnecessary closing down of government departments. With the Olympic games only a few days away and the first Olympic matches taking place today only a Conservative chancellor could make the decision to close the department that was pivotal (RL) in bringing the games to the United Kingdom. The chancellor says that art can be better managed by the Arts Council, but I ask the chancellor what extra funding will he provide to the Arts Council to deal with the burden of a departmental closure. The chancellor states that media policy can be better dealt with by the DfBWPs, but Mr Speaker, we later discover that the chancellor is slashing the budget of the combined department. This closure symbolises a tory led coalition that has no interest in the culture of the United Kingdom and is not interested in the sporting achievements of our heroic RL athletes in this RL Olympic year! Members of this house I am baffled to why this outrageous step has been taken, that will only save £3billion?

The department closures continue, with the government closing down the department for equalities, this isn’t surprising after all the RL cabinet comprises of only four elected female MPs and no elected MPs from ethnic minorities. I condemn this closure.


On the absorbing of the DfID into the FCO, I would like to ask the Chancellor what will be the new budget for the FCO? Isn’t it right to state that this government by closing the DfID has sent a signal to the international community, that TSRUK is not interested in the struggles and hardships of people living in developing countries, who struggle day and night to earn an honest wage which in many cases is less than $1 a day.

The chancellor has simply gone down the list of government departments and cut without thinking of the consequences or effects. I condemn the closure of the DECC, DfT and DEFRA. The chancellor wants to devolve these responsibilities to local government, but Mr Speaker, the chancellor is cutting the DCLG budget. How does the chancellor envisage local authorities to maintain their roads when he is cutting their budgets!?

I categorically condemn the closure of the Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland office. A party that did not in RL opposition support devolution is now, in power launching an attack on devolution. How can the public take seriously the comments of this government on the United Kingdom to stay united when they are cutting their representation in government!

Mr Speaker, the chancellor estimates that approximately 3000 people will be unemployed as a result of his reckless measures, however Mr Speaker I state to this house that the cost of the chancellor’s irresponsibility will be greater.

Mr Speaker, the chancellor’s budget is poorly thought-out, reckless and has placed thousands of jobs in jeopardy today. The nation has looked to the chancellor for hope and direction at this time of great difficultly, but has left feeling uncertain about their jobs and future. The chancellor has attacked motorists by freezing fuel duty until 2015, despite the UK being in the longest RL double dip recession and food prices continuing to increase. This budget says nothing about growth, investment and the future of our young people. The Chancellor is silent on the issues of education and growth and has instead sent out a message that the TSRUK does not care about the plight of millions at home and abroad. The chancellor has simply sought to take the burden of responsibility off his shoulders and place it on the shoulders of others. Mr Speaker, I do not support this reckless budget and urge other honourable members to do the same.
Well said and I complete agree with you.

We will cut XYZ without thinking of the consequences, I have mentioned Rail Franchises as an example.

Add LGBT and Disability to the bit in bold

It is good to know that some in the Opposition are campaigning against this Reckless Budget but where does your Leader stand on it all?
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Rakas21
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#69
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#69
I would like to point out that with the abolition of VAT, fuel is 20% cheaper already.
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tehFrance
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#70
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#70
Actually if we are all condemning departmental mergers, I condemn DEFRA's... purely because DEFRA needs expansion (especially when it comes to helping farmers) however it is too costly to do so but to close it down is not something I would like.

Then again it is my department and I didn't rally to save it so my own fault :lol:
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Morgsie
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#71
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#71
Keep the Department for Transport, by abolishing it you will create an even more mess regarding the Railways etc
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tehFrance
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Morgsie)
Keep the Department for Transport, by abolishing it you will create an even more mess regarding the Railways etc
N-O means NO!

Save DEFRA, it needs mo mun-nay!!!
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Morgsie
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#73
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#73
(Original post by tehFrance)
N-O means NO!

Save DEFRA, it needs mo mun-nay!!!
I want all Departments SAVED from the chop

This Budget is an omnishambles.

The Rail System is already fragmented and this Budget will further fragment the Rail System
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tehFrance
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#74
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#74
(Original post by Morgsie)
This Budget is an omnishambles.
No you sir are omnishambles... but I will tell you what is truly omnishambles, my bloody mary... :sad:
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toronto353
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#75
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#75
(Original post by eff01)

On the absorbing of the DfID into the FCO, I would like to ask the Chancellor what will be the new budget for the FCO? Isn’t it right to state that this government by closing the DfID has sent a signal to the international community, that TSRUK is not interested in the struggles and hardships of people living in developing countries, who struggle day and night to earn an honest wage which in many cases is less than $1 a day.
First of all, that was a great post. I may disagree with you on most of it (I agree with you when you agree with the Government ), but it is a great post. Now onto business, the merger is something that may be difficult for some to stomach, but I personally believe that it is a positive step forward in consolidating our foreign affairs. I aim to cut as little as possible from both departments combined, but there will be cuts. I can assure the Honourable member that I will ensure that the poorest are not affected by this cut and merger. This is a positive step forward for foreign affairs I believe and I relish the challenge of combining all our foreign policy into one department, but I believe that we can make this work.



(Original post by Morgsie)
I want all Departments SAVED from the chop

This Budget is an omnishambles.

The Rail System is already fragmented and this Budget will further fragment the Rail System
First of all, you're not Ed Miliband so I don't see why you're using his words (originally used by Malcolm Tucker). With regards to departmental mergers, this is a positive step forward and streamlines Government processes and we hope that these will go ahead quite soon.
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Morgsie
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#76
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#76
(Original post by toronto353)
First of all, that was a great post. I may disagree with you on most of it (I agree with you when you agree with the Government ), but it is a great post. Now onto business, the merger is something that may be difficult for some to stomach, but I personally believe that it is a positive step forward in consolidating our foreign affairs. I aim to cut as little as possible from both departments combined, but there will be cuts. I can assure the Honourable member that I will ensure that the poorest are not affected by this cut and merger. This is a positive step forward for foreign affairs I believe and I relish the challenge of combining all our foreign policy into one department, but I believe that we can make this work.

First of all, you're not Ed Miliband so I don't see why you're using his words. With regards to departmental mergers, this is a positive step forward and streamlines Government processes and we hope that these will go ahead quite soon.
The closures are not thought through which myself and others have explained. Your doing this without thinking the various consequences on different Policies
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tehFrance
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#77
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#77
(Original post by toronto353)
First of all, you're not Ed Miliband so I don't see why you're using his words.
It is not Miliband's word... have you not seen The Thick of It? Malcolm Tucker would be yelling all sorts right now if he saw this :teehee:
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toronto353
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#78
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#78
(Original post by tehFrance)
It is not Miliband's word... have you not seen The Thick of It? Malcolm Tucker would be yelling all sorts right now if he saw this :teehee:
I assumed that Morgsie would be emulating Miliband rather than Tucker.


(Original post by Morgsie)
The closures are not thought through which myself and others have explained. Your doing this without thinking the various consequences on different Policies
No they are thought through. DfID and FCO merging is a common sense policy. Merging the foreign affairs based departments into one and saving money is sensible. All the departmental closures/ mergers are sensible and will streamline the Government. What policies will this have consequences for (bar trains)?
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tehFrance
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#79
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#79
(Original post by toronto353)
I assumed that Morgsie would be emulating Miliband rather than Tucker.
It's Morgsie... so yes that said to call it Miliband's word is outrageous and I demand a retraction in the name of all that is holy
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toronto353
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#80
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#80
(Original post by tehFrance)
It's Morgsie... so yes that said to call it Miliband's word is outrageous and I demand a retraction in the name of all that is holy
Happy with the alteration above?
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