Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
x Turn on thread page Beta

Clever people in the navy/armed forces...... is it really worth it?? watch

    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    (Original post by djmarkmclachlan)
    How do you justify that? Because someone goes to Uni that means they will be 'probably' be more successful? I don't see how that can be; you've either got it or you've not. So how does gaining a degree give someone the edge over someone without, with regards to being capable of flying better?
    As mentioned, it does. You're older, more mature, have sat out a 3 or 4 year scheme of training without getting bored and giving up, have a bit more experience, and have hopefully spent the majority of your time on a UAS.

    The main thing recruiters like in this situation is that you've shown you have what it takes to pick a subject and stick with it; you went to university with no-one forcing you to and you completed it. Compare that to someone who, say, joined the navy, lasted a year, then gave up.... who's a better risk for putting up with the rigours of 6 years' worth of flying training plus holds?

    I can ring a couple of QFI mates at Linton, Cranwell and Valley and actually tell you how many grads vs non-grads make it to FJ training and pass it. The last BFJT course I had anything to do with only had 2 non grads on it.

    So, non-graduates, you have to face that, statistically, graduates do better through training. Live with it; it was your choice not to go to university.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Live with it; it was your choice not to go to university.
    One im eternally thankful for! I've never been so glad I didn't go to uni. Hasn't hampered me in getting in the RAF one bit. It was a concious decsion on my part not to go, I got in to Bham Uni but turned it down out of my own choice. I was asked why at OASC and I explained my reasons and they were perfectly happy with it.

    you went to university with no-one forcing you to
    No one forced me to go to work, I could have sat on the dole. No one forced me to get a job which challenged me, no one forced me to take extra duties, no one forced me to work 15 hour day's when Fire Fighters stike. No one forced me to go to cadets for 5 years.

    Statisitically you may be less of a training risk and im fine with that what annoy's me so so much more is this attitude that because you've got a degree your somehow better than those of us that don't. It seems we're already condemed to fail because we didn't go to uni. How do you know we're not the exception to the rule?

    You're older, more mature,
    - Not from the attitudes that I've seen.

    I can ring a couple of QFI mates at Linton, Cranwell and Valley and actually tell you how many grads vs non-grads make it to FJ training and pass it. The last BFJT course I had anything to do with only had 2 non grads on it.
    You assume FJ is what we want?
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Rotters)
    You assume FJ is what we want?
    Isn't that what the majority of prospective pilots want to do?
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    (Original post by Rotters)
    Hasn't hampered me in getting in the RAF one bit.
    No, but it makes you statistically more likely to be less successful.

    (Original post by Rotters)
    No one forced me to go to work, I could have sat on the dole. No one forced me to get a job which challenged me, no one forced me to take extra duties, no one forced me to work 15 hour day's when Fire Fighters stike. No one forced me to go to cadets for 5 years.
    ... and none of that proves you have the ability to absorb a long period of training without supervision in the same way a degree does. Graduates make better pilots.

    (Original post by Rotters)
    Statisitically you may be less of a training risk and im fine with that what annoy's me so so much more is this attitude that because you've got a degree your somehow better than those of us that don't.
    We are better. Are people with A levels no better than people with GCSEs?

    People without degrees may indeed have the potential to get one, and may perhaps be just as smart as some with them, but there's no way to prove it.

    And if you are smart enough to get a degree, with 99% of employers wanting one, you're perhaps silly to deliberately refuse one when you're entering a job with an uncertain future? What're you going to do if chopped aged 22 with nothing to fall back on? You could be chopped at 25 instead with a 1st class degree from Birmingham.

    (Original post by Rotters)
    It seems we're already condemed to fail because we didn't go to uni. How do you know we're not the exception to the rule?
    There are exceptions, but few. Why the hostility? Less DEs pass flying training than graduates; fact.

    (Original post by Rotters)
    - Not from the attitudes that I've seen.
    The immature attitude is the one that not having a degree through choice somehow makes you a better person. You learn a very VERY great deal going through university, even if your final qualification is golf course management!

    As Gemma says, look at the air forces around the world which only accept graduates. Are the US forces completely wrong?

    (Original post by Rotters)
    You assume FJ is what we want?
    If it's not, then you're approaching flying training with the wrong attitude. You don't pick your posting; you should want to do as well as possible and be the best pilot you can. Not aim for some middle ground to pass but not get a top streaming. We recruit FJ pilots and slip them down as they underperform, and that's the way it should be.

    There are a lot of people who think that young pilots who don't want FJ shouldn't be recruited, and there's a lot to say about that.

    If people want to take the "risk" of joining as a pilot at 18, then fine. You have to accept that you don't have the job in the bag until you're combat ready, and you're not going to be that before you're in closer to your mid twenties. What irritates me is when non graduates attempt to claim that this situation; less pay, less qualifications, more risk; is somehow "better."
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DPM)
    Isn't that what the majority of prospective pilots want to do?
    Most likely but im not the majority of pilots. Doesn't appeal to me at all. Most people are suprised when I say I don't want fast jets, I want rotary btw, but its my personal opinion that rotary is what I want. Amuses me that what people assume when I tell that I've got pilot. Judge a book by its cover anyone?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    What're you going to do if chopped aged 22 with nothing to fall back on?
    Plenty of things. Fire Service would be first choice and almost a dead cert to get in.

    We recruit FJ pilots and slip them down as they underperform, and that's the way it should be.
    I assume that your/were fast jet? Can you then please explain why fast jet is considered to be 'better' than rotary or fixed wing?
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    (Original post by Rotters)
    Plenty of things. Fire Service would be first choice and almost a dead cert to get in.
    Fine, you have a backup now. Like most early twenties ex-DEs who are chopped, I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't take it. Either way that just leaves you as a larger training risk with less pay; so please stop trying to claim that not having a degree is better. It's your choice, yes, but it's certainly not better.

    (Original post by Rotters)
    I assume that your/were fast jet? Can you then please explain why fast jet is considered to be 'better' than rotary or fixed wing?
    Because it's the most challenging, it's where we send our best pilots, and it's where our focus is. Everyone is recruited as being fit for FJ flying, and are only sent to other streams when they underperform during EFT or fail further down the line.

    Why would you want to be a pilot and not want to be one of the best on your course? I had a Stn Cdr a while ago who made the point that he'd not bother recruiting anyone who didn't want to be a single seat FJ pilot; why pick someone who meekly decides to aim for the middle ground?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Why would you want to be a pilot and not want to be one of the best on your course?
    Of course I want to be the best on my course, but does that negate me from having a personal preference?
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    The two are at cross purposes when the best pilots at EFT end up doing BFJT.

    You're going to get on brilliantly with pilots when you start mixing with them. Just tell everyone you meet on holds that getting a degree was a stupid idea and they're all idiots for not joining straight from school, then tell all your QFIs you're not interested in fast jets.....
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    You're going to get on brilliantly with pilots when you start mixing with them. Just tell everyone you meet on holds that getting a degree was a stupid idea and they're all idiots for not joining straight from school, then tell all your QFIs you're not interested in fast jets
    Sounds like a brilliant idea.

    If what your saying is so important, that I must want fast jets, why when I stated to the board at OASC that I wanted rotary did I still get a place? Im DE and don't want Fast Jets and I still get a pilot what does that tell you?
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    It tells me that you did well enough at the other parts to get past a bad mark for motivation on your interview. It tells me that you've got the wrong attitude, and the blunties who select at OASC have nothing to do with your flying training

    Please start thinking that selection's the hard bit when you're going to train as a pilot.

    Unless you've spent a couple of months with both an RW and an FJ squadron, and flown a handful of hours in each type, then you can't tell which you'd prefer. And to go into a job with the attitude that you don't want to excel is wrong.

    Most people want FJ not because of any sort of ridiculous Top Gun fantasies, but because it's where the best go. So if RW was where the best pilots went, they'd want that.
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    CV Helper
    (Original post by Rotters)
    If what your saying is so important
    And why this sort of attitude? Why not assume I'm right? I'm a fairly typical pilot, and I'm a QFI; I'm exactly the sort of person who is paid to teach trainees to fly.

    If my studes don't want to do well, I'm not very impressed; and I don't work with anyone who doesn't think the same way.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Wzz)
    And to go into a job with the attitude that you don't want to excel is wrong.
    Everything else you've said is right, but he did say he would want to come top of his class.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    so please stop trying to claim that not having a degree is better.
    No where have I tried to claim its better only that I don't appreciate the attitudes that, in your own words, a fairly typical pilot has of DE's. There are less DE's at BFJT, you've said that, so for them to get there they must have worked their asses correct? Not saying that grads haven't but statistically its harder for a DE to get there so does that not prove that they have the staying power?

    It tells me that you did well enough at the other parts to get past a bad mark for motivation on your interview.
    Since when has 9 been a bad mark for motivation?

    I don't work with anyone who doesn't think the same way
    Thats a very narrow minded attitude. We're all different, just because I don't want to do what you do doesn't mean that I will be a bad pilot. Im more attracted to the roles and tasking of the rotary world than that off the fast jet world. Why is that so bad? I want to achieve the best, I want to fulfill my goals. But in my opinion FJ is the not the be all and end all, im not saying that rotary is but personally I think I would be more happy and more staisfied in a rotary arena.

    And why this sort of attitude?
    No attitude Wzz, not looking for a fight or anything. Just think its great to have a healthy debate and challenge the opinions of a 'typical pilot'. Its what fourms are here for. Im not saying your totally wrong or totally right, I respect your opinion but I have my own opinion and I think its great that we can have this banter. Im not trying to change your point of view but perhaps open your eyes to different attitudes towards RAF flying after all the RAF don't want people cut to a pattern now do they!

    Friends?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Rotters,

    You sound just like a guy on my UAS who tried to argue against any sensible point made "just to be different" and prove, in case it wasn't blatently obvious, that you are an individual and didn't conform to unofficial, self imposed (by most) standards.

    I think I met you at the Fam visit; I sincerely hope that you wont be this argumentitive until December. I also notice from another forum that you're a cadet warant officer - they didn't seem to go doen too well on UASs either.

    Listen to the points being made against your argument and accept them and get on. You WILL be in the minority with your views so try not p*ss off too many people.

    To add a little realism to the DE vs. Grad FJ chances - during my 2 years on a UAS we had 3 sets of 'DE's' (1 was always an APO and 1 a Fg Off). On every occasion the APO went ME and on 2 occasions the Fg Off went to Linton.

    Oh yeah, this thread is not 'banter' - you're just coming across as a bit of an arse!
    Offline

    13
    OP - if you want to earn megabucks. Go work in the City, earn 50k in your first year and aim to make you first bonus of a million by about 26 or 27. Mind out for the 1% success rate among applicants to just start the job though.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Raptor)
    I also notice from another forum that you're a cadet warant officer - they didn't seem to go doen too well on UASs either.
    That's probably because all the mouthy ex cadets made nobbers of themselves therefore fuelling the ex cadet stereotype.
    • Community Assistant
    • CV Helper
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    CV Helper
    Rotters/DJM

    Get a grip and RTF replies you are getting. If your grasp of new information is this slow during flying training then it's going to be a very short course for you, regardless of your determination or qualifications.

    No-one is saying that anyone is a better pilot because they have a degree - a degree does not enhance anyone's flying skills, it does not improve spatial awareness, hand-eye co-ordination etc. (though it may improve prioritisation, organisation but let's not go there).

    The facts of flying training, in my experience (and unlike you two, I have some!) are as follows (and Wzz might like to correct/confirm/update):

    Flying training is V expensive and is pared right down to the bone. There is little or no time to repeat anything taught either in the classroom or the air. Therefore, there is a very great premium on people who are quick on the uptake, who learn new skills, be they physical or academic, first time around, and can thereafter repeat them perfectly every time, without the need for much consolidation.

    The people that can do this best go to the single seat FJ world, the next best go to the two seat FJ world. This is largely because that rate and accuracy of assimilation of information is required on an aircraft that operates at 600kts.

    After that, things get a little more complicated, different skills and the changing demands of force structures come into play. However, pilots (and navs) that are sent RW or ME are ultimately not 'worse' aircrew than the FJ folks, they have simply struggled to keep up with the intensive pace of flying training, and required more time. Invariably they turn out to be extremely capable operators on their eventual aircraft type. The better/worse element of the debate is simply a function of speed and accuracy of absorbing new skills during flying training, not a judgement on the ultimate professionalism and capability of different RAF aircrew (despite the banter).

    Like any employer, the RAF is in the business of making this process as efficient as possible. Their own evidence proves that degree holders are better at assimilating the information and skills required during flying training than non-graduates. FACT. No-one is saying that you as an individual will not be succesful because you don't have a degree, nor that you will be a lousy pilot if you do scrape through. The case we are making is one about statistical chances of success, and therefore why the RAF shows a preference for certain people.

    If you are still struggling to understand this situation - then I rest my case!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    I also notice from another forum that you're a cadet warant officer - they didn't seem to go doen too well on UASs either.
    Cadet bashing, there's one I haven't had in a while. Suppose its something to with me being at cadets all my life? So my 5 years at cadets has taught me nothing?

    If you are still struggling to understand this situation - then I rest my case!
    Im not struggling to understand you at all. Just can't see why you appear to know better than those at OASC? It is after all there job to select people is not?

    I don't suppose your used to people not agreeing with or not thinking you have the best job in the world?
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DavidJas)
    I can't stand narrow minded threads like this one. People seem to think that having a degree is an instant ticket to a high paid job Military rates of pay are pretty good for graduates, if you compare it to others, with plenty of opportunities for promotion and pay rises.
    But like previously said, you don't join the military for the money, you do it for the experience and the challenge.
    Well said!
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: May 7, 2006
Poll
Do you agree with the proposed ban on plastic straws and cotton buds?
Useful resources

Articles:

Guide to the armed forcesGuide to the Royal Air ForceA job in the Army

Featured recruiter profiles:

Army logo

The Army is recruiting now

"With hundreds of roles available, there’s more than one way to be the best."

Quick Link:

Unanswered Armed Forces Threads

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.