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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    The lack of evidence is due to yourself and other feminists being unable to provide any in regards as to how you're being oppressed.
    How does that have anything to do with what you posted?

    (Original post by effofex)
    Their movement has been more than willing to trample on the welfare of working-class men and on the welfare of blacks in the past:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Latimer_Felton

    The next 20 years will show that no amount of 'feminism' can ever rig the free market.
    I find it interesting that women, working class people and black/other minority ethnic groups are supposed to fight among themselves for the few positions that left after the middle class, white men have taken what they want. That's why intersectionality is important - instead of splitting up into smaller and smaller fractions, we could work together to say "Hey, why is it assumed that you're entitled to the best positions?" Obviously there's such differing interests within and between each group so it's not so easy to organise, but I think it's important to recognise that there is a group that never seems to get trampled on.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    How does that have anything to do with what you posted?
    Still side-stepping the question? Lmao.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    How does that have anything to do with what you posted?



    I find it interesting that women, working class people and black/other minority ethnic groups are supposed to fight among themselves for the few positions that left after the middle class, white men have taken what they want. That's why intersectionality is important - instead of splitting up into smaller and smaller fractions, we could work together to say "Hey, why is it assumed that you're entitled to the best positions?" Obviously there's such differing interests within and between each group so it's not so easy to organise, but I think it's important to recognise that there is a group that never seems to get trampled on.
    I live in a council flat as I'm not at university yet, with my brothers and mum who is unemployed, I don't really feel oppressed, it's not nice and because of the price of heating being too much but it's better than sleeping roughly. I don't feel opression, sometimes people call me a chav at college, but I don't really care.

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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    How does that have anything to do with what you posted?



    I find it interesting that women, working class people and black/other minority ethnic groups are supposed to fight among themselves for the few positions that left after the middle class, white men have taken what they want. That's why intersectionality is important - instead of splitting up into smaller and smaller fractions, we could work together to say "Hey, why is it assumed that you're entitled to the best positions?" Obviously there's such differing interests within and between each group so it's not so easy to organise, but I think it's important to recognise that there is a group that never seems to get trampled on.
    The part in bold constitutes the majority of the planet. The link I provided is a prime example of a Western feminist prioritizing her group and willing to exact violence/prejudice against others.

    It was the same story with many Western feminists in the Indian subcontinent until they were booted out.

    Increasingly it isn't 'middle class, white men' taking what they want. Whole swathes of technical industries all across Europe are often disproportionately populated by migrant men of non-white origin. Furthermore over the next few decades economic power will shift towards the East.
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    (Original post by Ferrero Rocher)
    That's exactly the problem. Women of colour don't need the help of white feminists. It's patronising and erases their own struggles against patriarchal oppression. It presents them as voiceless and helpless, forever waiting for white colonialists to come and save them from the savage brown/black men.

    The genuine change in the societal attitudes only comes from grassroot movements organised by the oppressed people, not from above.

    "… true emancipation begins neither in the polls or in the courts. It begins in woman’s soul. History tells us that every oppressed class gained true liberation from its masters through its own efforts. It is necessary that woman learn that lesson, that she realize that her freedom will reach as far as her power to reach her freedom reaches"
    - Emma Goldman.
    So I should intentionally not cared if I am white? Just to make sure I don't patronize? What? :confused: How did you type that stupidity with a straight face.
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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    Still side-stepping the question? Lmao.

    The irony is strong in this post :vader:

    P.S.


    I don't really disagree with anything you've said, I just admired the politesse in responding to a question dodge by remarking on someones question dodging, thereby dodging the question.
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    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    The irony is strong in this post :vader:

    P.S.


    I don't really disagree with anything you've said, I just admired the politesse in responding to a question dodge by remarking on someones question dodging, thereby dodging the question.
    Rhetorical questions require no answer.
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    Since you decided I'm an opressing upper middle classed women in my ivory tower *ahem* council flat.

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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    So, women tend to apply to do engineering? It's honestly not that, in my classes this year A-level chemistry: boys 17 girls 15 biology girls 19 boys 15 mathematics boys 22 girls 7 and physics: boys 26 girls 2, tell me why is there a lack of girls in mathematics and physics then? Because any boy or girl with 7 Bs, including an A in mathematics and above could get in. Is it possible that women aren't applying either?

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    I do both maths and physics. I also do Product Design.

    It strange actually and James Dyson was wondering why women do not take up these A levels. However he went into an all girls school and expected that there would be small classes of girls doing maths and physics, except the opposite occurred!
    The demand of the girls to do these A level greatly surpassed the demand in mixed schools and the physics classes, in particular, were the most popular.

    The reason to this might be easier to see if you think of a boy wanting to do textiles for A level.
    In my school anyway this is laughable, actually unthinkable.

    There is one boy in my Product Design class who should really be doing textiles yet the fear of how he would be looked at pushed him into half-heartily doing Product Design.

    Luckily for me I didn't see doing physics too fearful as we have some brilliant female physicist teachers.
    Sadly we only have female textiles teachers

    I know this reply is furthering a tangent of the thread, I felt like this wasn't really considered.
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    (Original post by LittleMissNoface)
    I do both maths and physics. I also do Product Design.

    It strange actually and James Dyson was wondering why women do not take up these A levels. However he went into an all girls school and expected that there would be small classes of girls doing maths and physics, except the opposite occurred!
    The demand of the girls to do these A level greatly surpassed the demand in mixed schools and the physics classes, in particular, were the most popular.

    The reason to this might be easier to see if you think of a boy wanting to do textiles for A level.
    In my school anyway this is laughable, actually unthinkable.

    There is one boy in my Product Design class who should really be doing textiles yet the fear of how he would be looked at pushed him into half-heartily doing Product Design.

    Luckily for me I didn't see doing physics too fearful as we have some brilliant female physicist teachers.
    Sadly we only have female textiles teachers

    I know this reply is furthering a tangent of the thread, I felt like this wasn't really considered.
    I guess so, but it might be possible less women than men do A degree in physics? Like they might end up doing biology, or psychological sciences, why does it matter if less women than men do physics? Why does it matter if less men than women do nursing or psychological sciences?

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    There is a black girl I have on Facebook that "hates" white feminists dissing Beyonce for dressing the way she does.

    I never even understood how you can have white feminists and black feminists. Surely you all want the same? More equality.
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    I guess so, but it might be possible less women than men do A degree in physics? Like they might end up doing biology, or psychological sciences, why does it matter if less women than men do physics? Why does it matter if less men than women do nursing or psychological sciences?

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    It doesn't matter.

    What does matter is if someone feels because of their gender they are less capable to do the degree or feel that they would be looked upon badly in doing it. Or even feel like no one is supporting them to do it because of their gender.

    That matters.

    If I felt like I couldn't do Maths at A level I might of chosen English literature. This is something I am not as good at however I wouldn't feel as intimidated by it.
    For me this would of resulted in a less chance of me being able to apply to an Architecture degree due to Maths being more desirable.
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    (Original post by danny111)
    There is a black girl I have on Facebook that "hates" white feminists dissing Beyonce for dressing the way she does.

    I never even understood how you can have white feminists and black feminists. Surely you all want the same? More equality.
    Yes I have seen this Beyoncé stuff.
    I dunno why people would dis her for wearing things.

    Yes I agree, do not understand the divide fully. Even after this thread...
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    So, women tend to apply to do engineering? It's honestly not that, in my classes this year A-level chemistry: boys 17 girls 15 biology girls 19 boys 15 mathematics boys 22 girls 7 and physics: boys 26 girls 2, tell me why is there a lack of girls in mathematics and physics then? Because any boy or girl with 7 Bs, including an A in mathematics and above could get in. Is it possible that women aren't applying either?

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    You don't see feminists protesting to have women included in the draft ( although that crap shouldn't be there)
    You doing see them protesting and demanding for more women in mining jobs etc.
    You don't see men crying discrimination because of a lack of male midwives.
    Let's face it. Feminism has done nothing but fight for advantages for women. 1st wave feminism fought for the right to vote even though women didn't even join the army and for a while couldn't join the army as easily as men. 2nd wave feminists fought for contraceptive rights for women and sexual liberation, while failing to do the same for men, claiming that the bra, created by a woman was there to oppress them. 3rd wave feminism is just fighting to overturn societal assumptions Against them while failing to address men's issue. Hell most of these issues overlap, with women fighting for the right to wear trousers while failing toi fight for men's right to wear make up and skirts (not like I wanna wear the stuff, but a kilt wouldn't be too bad)
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    (Original post by LittleMissNoface)
    It doesn't matter.

    What does matter is if someone feels because of their gender they are less capable to do the degree or feel that they would be looked upon badly in doing it. Or even feel like no one is supporting them to do it because of their gender.

    That matters.

    If I felt like I couldn't do Maths at A level I might of chosen English literature. This is something I am not as good at however I wouldn't feel as intimidated by it.
    For me this would of resulted in a less chance of me being able to apply to an Architecture degree due to Maths being more desirable.
    My physics teacher was a woman, I rate her a good physics teacher, because she knew what she was talking about not because she was a woman, she wanted more girls in her class but almost none were actually interested, it isn't like the men were saying women shouldn't do physics, like in my mate's engineering classes he said there is like 3 girls out of a class of 25, nothing stops you from doing it but self doubt.

    It does matter, but it isn't a load or fifteen year old boys or teachers stopping girls from doing it, it's all self doubt no one is saying women can't be good at mathematics or men are always worse at English. Except bigoted morons.

    If you feel less capable because of the gender, before I started doing A level physics and mathematics this year, I wanted to be a nurse, well paid and career stablility, but I was put off by the sheer number of women in the field that's why I got put off, because there would be nearly no men that I could talk with, about guy stuff, I feel I wouldn't be comfortable in the profession, not because of sexism, the banter male nurses and female engineers get is nowhere near as bad as the stick thrown at bankers or business-people. I would like to be a nurse, but I guess pharmacy or biochem will do.


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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    My physics teacher was a woman, I rate her a good physics teacher, because she knew what she was talking about not because she was a woman, she wanted more girls in her class but almost none were actually interested, it isn't like the men were saying women shouldn't do physics, like in my mate's engineering classes he said there is like 3 girls out of a class of 25, nothing stops you from doing it but self doubt.

    It does matter, but it isn't a load or fifteen year old boys or teachers stopping girls from doing it, it's all self doubt no one is saying women can't be good at mathematics or men are always worse at English.

    If you feel less capable because of the gender, before I started doing A level physics and mathematics this year, I wanted to be a nurse, well paid and career stablility, but I was put off by the sheer number of women in the field that's why I got put off, because there would be nearly no men that I could talk with, about guy stuff, I feel I wouldn't be comfortable in the profession, not because of sexism, the banter male nurses and female engineers get is nowhere near as bad as the stick thrown at bankers or business-people.


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    Well I do not think it is men telling women what to do, or women telling men what to do. I think it is society showing what they can do. Or more specifically experience telling them what they can do.

    Having a female physics teacher for me was a setting example of a female being able to do physics, actually both my physics teachers were females. Which was awesome!

    What you said about people not saying women aren't good at this, or men not being good at this - I disagree with.

    When I was younger they bought me Barbie dolls because girls liked dressing up things pretty, they bought my male cousin electric circuit makers and aliens in eggs. (luckily my cousin use to take my dolls and make them marry the aliens, and then I got to melt them with the electricity set)
    I wasn't bought gun games, no they gave me Sims.
    Apparently girls are more in touch with the right side of their brain and boys with the left...
    I actually learnt this in lesson...
    So I think we are told this a lot. Until it is just in our subconscious.

    I agree with what you say about having no one to talk to. I think that is also quite a deal breaker.
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    (Original post by LittleMissNoface)
    Well I do not think it is men telling women what to do, or women telling men what to do. I think it is society showing what they can do. Or more specifically experience telling them what they can do.

    Having a female physics teacher for me was a setting example of a female being able to do physics, actually both my physics teachers were females. Which was awesome!

    What you said about people not saying women aren't good at this, or men not being good at this - I disagree with.

    When I was younger they bought me Barbie dolls because girls liked dressing up things pretty, they bought my male cousin electric circuit makers and aliens in eggs. (luckily my cousin use to take my dolls and make them marry the aliens, and then I got to melt them with the electricity set)
    I wasn't bought gun games, no they gave me Sims.
    Apparently girls are more in touch with the right side of their brain and boys with the left...
    I actually learnt this in lesson...
    So I think we are told this a lot. Until it is just in our subconscious.

    I agree with what you say about having no one to talk to. I think that is also quite a deal breaker.
    Yeah, that's because they are raised to use it, if the boys were passed the dolls paternal instincts would be unlocked instead of maternal ones meaning boys would want to do parenting more, and if girls played with the circuit boards and the mechanic stuff and cars, girls would become more likely to go into those fields because they think "women do this more than men do" so women would be more likely to do It the gender roles in modern society would quite quickly head in the opposite direction, as we are social creatures we want to conform to social normalcy to fit in including gender roles, it's not as I'd gender roles were there to hate women or force men to work, it just happend. I believe gender roles could actually be flexible to an extent, but there are some things that biology decided.

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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    Yeah, that's because they are raised to use it, if the boys were passed the dolls paternal instincts would be unlocked instead of maternal ones meaning boys would want to do parenting more, and if girls played with the circuit boards and the mechanic stuff and cars, girls would become more likely to go into those fields because they think "women do this more than men do" so women would be more likely to do It the gender roles in modern society would quite quickly head in the opposite direction, as we are social creatures we want to conform to social normalcy to fit in including gender roles, it's not as I'd gender roles were there to hate women or force men to work, it just happend. I believe gender roles could actually be flexible to an extent, but there are some things that biology decided.

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    What things have biology decided?
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    (Original post by LittleMissNoface)
    I agree, however the amount of rage a lot of non-white feminists are expressing makes me feel like I am missing something.

    If you take the recent events in India with rape and how it has surfaced a lot of suppression and issues in India.
    Things I have seen is anger towards 'white' feminists wanting to help 'poor Indian women' and they see it as patronizing and a typical 'white' thing to do.
    Because obviously these Indian women are not weak yet the way some people are taking about them is quite demeaning.

    Is this where white feminism is a 'thing'?
    I'm so so lucky to be born in a society where the only kind of discrimination I am facing is de facto, whereas these women are being oppressed and nothing is being done because 'that's just the way things are in India.' Personally I find this sickening. I understand that there are some women who are content with being the property of men and if they are happy with this - that is fine, but there are masses of women who want a proper education, want to be able to be economically independent, etc. and I really want to do everything I can do try and provide these opportunities. I wouldn't be a feminist (or even a decent human being) if I could just shrug off women's issues that don't affect me.
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    (Original post by LittleMissNoface)
    What things have biology decided?
    Hmmm well, why do you think military is targeted as a man's job? Is it because women are weak and helpless? No, it's because men are more disposable than women are in terms of reproduction, the same reason that violence against women is seen as more abhorrent than violence against men is because men's role in reproduction is only 20 minutes whereas a woman's role is nine months and if you hit a pregnant woman the baby could die, so what they do is send men to do it, women are pretty much as capable at hunting as men are, but they didn't do it because women were needed to reproduce, also libido is slightly higher in men than women, that's due to reproduction roles again men want to spread their genes whereas women want the best mate to make their offspring with, and the reason why women have a higher bodyfat% than men and lower amounts of musclemass is because muscles use a lot of energy that they need to not be using whilst pregnant. These are decided by biology really.

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