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    (Original post by Emily115)
    1.Well actually, you told me to go and read a post which wasn't really relevant.

    2.From reading your posts to other people, it seems like you're basically trying to prove that art has no purpose/importance and doesn't make a contribution to anything. Which is a completely different subject to that that you invited people to discuss..


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    1. It was relevant to your assertion.

    Your assertion was: "there's other artists who make artwork for themselves (instead of showing it to others) as a form of self expression"

    The post I meant was: "I think a lot of the time this ( this refers to 'artists who don't even show anyone their work or reveal that they're artist') is is more down to timidity and self-criticism/self-consciousness than a dislike for attention in itself."

    So it was fully relevant.

    2. Fair enough. I am trying to see (based on the replies I get) whether or not art has any purpose other than being displayed in public (hence attention seeking). If it has some other purpose then artists in general can't be attention seekers, if it has not any other purpose then artists in general can be said to be attention seekers. People so far have tried and linked art to society in terms of its contrubutions as in form of therapy, making communication easier, etc. As you can see, it is relevant. Maybe I did not make this clear earlier.
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    (Original post by Mark85)
    1-Actually, a heck of a lot of science is totally useless as far as 'practical' applications go. 2-In general, science is about understanding the world (universe) around us; it isn't all about engineering which is generally recognised as a separate discipline.

    3-At some stage you have to question how you interpret practical. I mean, my goals in life aren't just to survive and use convenience products; I also want to enjoy myself and expand my mind.5- Various art forms have a great 'practical' use for me since books, music, films etc. are tools I use to think and enjoy myself. On the other hand, the theory of say, cosmology isn't of any practical use to me since it doesn't interest me as much as other things.
    1- But it still has more uses than art.

    2- Even without engineering, this understanding provides us with ways to help people, detecting and curing diseases, expanding our lifespan, etc.

    3- Fair point.

    4- I know. But to survive is still your primal and most basic objective.

    5- Fair point.
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    I'm not an artist, but a classical musician (pianist) - I am pursuing this because I want to and not because I'm an attention seeker. I love performing because of the thrill it gives me and also because I love the music, not because I want to show off or want people to think that I'm brilliant, because I'm not.
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    Artists need to be attention seekers to survive in the super competitive industry. If you don’t self promote your work will never achieve the success it deserves. No one is going to promote your work if you don’t believe in it yourself. Is art more beneficial to society than science? Of course not however art is what’s inspires many fields and other industry’s into new ways of thinking. There is no point in everyone trying to convince themselves they are superior over others though because whats the point? All you're doing is trying to convince yourself that your better than others when none of this matters and it all comes across as pretty pathetic really.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Is that a fact or just your opinion?
    Some would say opinion, I would say fact as I've yet to see someone prove me wrong on it


    (Original post by Mark85)
    Actually, a heck of a lot of science is totally useless as far as 'practical' applications go. In general, science is about understanding the world (universe) around us; it isn't all about engineering which is generally recognised as a separate discipline.

    At some stage you have to question how you interpret practical. I mean, my goals in life aren't just to survive and use convenience products; I also want to enjoy myself and expand my mind. Various art forms have a great 'practical' use for me since books, music, films etc. are tools I use to think and enjoy myself. On the other hand, the theory of say, cosmology isn't of any practical use to me since it doesn't interest me as much as other things.
    :facepalm2:
    Such as what exactly?
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    (Original post by paddlesnap)
    I'm not an artist, but a classical musician (pianist) - I am pursuing this because I want to and not because I'm an attention seeker. I love performing because of the thrill it gives me and also because I love the music, not because I want to show off or want people to think that I'm brilliant, because I'm not.
    But you still think you are good enough to get others watch your performance, don't you? I am yet to see someone with the same number of performance in public than in private. Obviously if it is private I won't be able to see it. But in the case of a piano, i will be able to hear it.
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    Well this is an extremely vaugue thread. I'm going to assume that when you say "artists" you mean painters, since that's what most people refer to with comments like that. Regardless of the fact that there are many types or artist. You have the traditional artists and sculptors, modern contempary artists (which is what people tend to associate art with, the blank canvases with a few rectagles of colour in the Tate that people find easiest to scorn at.) musicans, performers, photographers, art in advertisment, entertainment art (think movies and games) and that's if you sepearte art from design, when they really go hand in hand.

    But onto the question, are artist attention seekers? No not really, at least the ones that I've known. The artists that I've known in my life (from GCSE-A2 Fine Art and games art and design at university) are some of the humblest people I've ever met when it comes to thier work, part of its due to that's how they are as people, part of it due to society telling artist that they'd be better off doing something else ,part of its due to never feeling good enough as an artist becuase it takes years or practise an dedication to be a good you're not going to suddenly run around yelling that you're Da vinci, not in professional practise.

    But to be fair attention the seekers are most likey attention seekers regardless of whether they decide ti be an artist or not.

    Though something I found (not just in artistic professions) is that many people mistake seeking attention for seeking recognition which is is a normal thing to do, but is hard to put across the level of work youv'e put in in a humble way when it's presented to someone outside your field of work.
    example: If you've spent 50 hours painting a portrait you might want to show it off, and why shouldn't you? It's perfectly reasonable. But when someone else comes along and just sees a portrait without the 50 hours it took to produce the artist pride behind that painting would seem missplaced and he/she would seem like an attention seeker.

    Also Art can be a fairly individual practise in that when someone paints something they're normally the sole painter. when someone builds a car they may have only been responsible for designing the door, which is a lot harder to brag about really. Though I guess you could argue if you think about the amount of money that then goes into the promotion of said car, the bragging element is still there. indiviual names aren't mentioned, but it's still there.

    Man i've rambled quiet a bit here...
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    But you still think you are good enough to get others watch your performance, don't you? I am yet to see someone with the same number of performance in public than in private. Obviously if it is private I won't be able to see it. But in the case of a piano, i will be able to hear it.
    I perform around four times a year, if I am lucky. This will usually be one piece of around 5-6 minutes in a school concert. I practice three hours a day. Ergo, I practice more in private than I play publicly.

    I don't really see the point of this, it seems as though people are trying to make all artists out as attention seeking pretentious *******s, and while I won't deny some are, perhaps you ought to think some are doing what they do for love of the subject and not to be lavished with praise and attention?

    Art is not as valuable to society as science. This is a fact. However, I am a musician because it benefits myself and it is what I want to do. Perhaps I am of no value to society for this. Quite frankly, I don't care. If someone has a passion for a subject it is only correct that they pursue it because it fulfills them.
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    (Original post by paddlesnap)
    I perform around four times a year, if I am lucky. This will usually be one piece of around 5-6 minutes in a school concert. I practice three hours a day. Ergo, I practice more in private than I play publicly.

    I don't really see the point of this, it seems as though people are trying to make all artists out as attention seeking pretentious *******s, and while I won't deny some are, perhaps you ought to think some are doing what they do for love of the subject and not to be lavished with praise and attention?

    Art is not as valuable to society as science. This is a fact. However, I am a musician because it benefits myself and it is what I want to do. Perhaps I am of no value to society for this. Quite frankly, I don't care. If someone has a passion for a subject it is only correct that they pursue it because it fulfills them.
    Excellent reply. I have nothing to say.
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    :facepalm2:
    Such as what exactly?
    Much of theoretical physics e.g. string theory, cosmology etc.

    Science is just a methodology and it is commonly applied to understanding the world and universe around us. One can have different motivations for doing so and very commonly, the primary motivation is curiosity rather than anything 'practical'.
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    (Original post by Mark85)
    Much of theoretical physics e.g. string theory, cosmology etc.

    Science is just a methodology and it is commonly applied to understanding the world and universe around us. One can have different motivations for doing so and very commonly, the primary motivation is curiosity rather than anything 'practical'.
    Not at all.
    Such an attitude was taken towards the first findings of quantum physics, and look how that changed the world. You have to remember that it takes time to be able to use the applications of such theories after discovering them eg. CERN. Now that we have the Higgs Boson, we are looking for more and we have no idea where this will lead and to what end it will help with things such as quantum computing, fusion energy, ftl travel etc. It is curiosity that leads to invention.

    Now what picture has changed the world?
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    I disagree.

    0. Self-expression is important to society.

    1. Art is self-expression.

    2. Self-expression is not necessarily art.

    Thus,

    art is not as important to society as science.
    I took a look at this argument and died a bit inside.
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    Not at all.
    Such an attitude was taken towards the first findings of quantum physics, and look how that changed the world. You have to remember that it takes time to be able to use the applications of such theories after discovering them eg. CERN. Now that we have the Higgs Boson, we are looking for more and we have no idea where this will lead and to what end it will help with things such as quantum computing, fusion energy, ftl travel etc. It is curiosity that leads to invention.

    Now what picture has changed the world?
    The person who saw a photograph of a cause and dedicated themselves to it, helping thousands. The poem written by someone suicidal which helped them come to terms with their feelings. The painting done by someone because they simply enjoy iy.

    Most of these will have changed the world for the individual.
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    (Original post by Aleandcynicism)
    I took a look at this argument and died a bit inside.
    Sentence 0 and 1 were given to me by some user. I took them as premises and added mine (Sentence 2). With the sentences I generated a logical conclusion. The argument is sound and valid.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Sentence 0 and 1 were given to me by some user. I took them as premises and added mine (Sentence 2). With the sentences I generated a logical conclusion. The argument is sound and valid.
    I disagree.

    0. Maintaining civil liberties is important to society.

    1. The right to freedom of speech is a civil liberty.

    2. Civil liberties are not necessarily to do with freedom of speech.

    Thus,

    Freedom of speech is not as important to society as science.

    :rolleyes:

    That's what you get for trying to equate values with facts: a mess that can be manipulated by anyone.
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    all this arguing about science vs art is stupid and pointless.
    the sciences and the arts are completely separate from each other - trying to compare them does neither one justice.
    a big problem ive seen here is that those obviously greatly in favour of science are pretty narrow minded. to me, art is self expression, and trying to understand the internal and external world. capturing what it is that you see so that others can catch a glimpse. the defnition is not something you can really argue about, as it is different for everyone. youve just got to be accepting of other peoples opinions. its like saying people are stupid for thinking harry potter is the best book in the world. for you, it might not be, but that doesnt matter. everyones allowed an opinion.
    you cant say science is better than the arts. there wouldnt be anything without art. cave men or whatever, painting pictures on walls to tell a story and to convey meaning to each other. this then develops into the written language, and is the foundation of the modern world.

    i dont think artists are attention seeking, generally. personally, the art i create tries to portray the beauty that i see in something, and it makes me happy. of course i want to share something i think is beautiful and happy - as far as im concerned, thats a natural instinct. obviously i want people to like my work, i put a lot of effort into it! however, you dont show it to get praise, you show it to send a message. i want others to be able to see the beauty that i see, and my art allows me to do that. personally, im not great at receiving praise! lol! i prefer anonymity.

    also, attention seeking is not the same as trying to gain recognition.
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    (Original post by Aleandcynicism)
    I disagree.

    0. Maintaining civil liberties is important to society.

    1. The right to freedom of speech is a civil liberty.

    2. Civil liberties are not necessarily to do with freedom of speech.

    Thus,

    Freedom of speech is not as important to society as science.

    :rolleyes:

    That's what you get for trying to equate values with facts: a mess that can be manipulated by anyone.
    Fair enough.
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    (Original post by POWCATTY)
    1.to me, art is self expression, and trying to understand the internal and external world. capturing what it is that you see so that others can catch a glimpse. the defnition is not something you can really argue about, as it is different for everyone. youve just got to be accepting of other peoples opinions. 2. its like saying people are stupid for thinking harry potter is the best book in the world.

    3.i dont think artists are attention seeking, generally. personally, the art i create tries to portray the beauty that i see in something,

    also, 4.attention seeking is not the same as trying to gain recognition.
    1. Again, not all self-expression is necessarily art.

    2. I said "are artists attention seekers?". I did not say anything about art till some user mentioned it. I am talking about artists not at about art. Attention seeking is a very objective behavioural trait which can be detected. In this sense, arguing about whether or not artists are attention seekers is not subjective.

    3. Really? The difference between a "succesful" artists and an unsucessful one is who gets more attention.

    4. No, it is not. Gaining recognition implies that one deserves the attention which suggests certain arrogance. While attention seeking does not imply such arrogance.
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    The person who saw a photograph of a cause and dedicated themselves to it, helping thousands. The poem written by someone suicidal which helped them come to terms with their feelings. The painting done by someone because they simply enjoy iy.

    Most of these will have changed the world for the individual.
    ..but not changed the world, thus unimportant. Sadly art is at the bottom of the pile when it comes to things that have changed history, from science to literature, but never art.
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    It doesn't really matter how good of an artist you are, getting any kind of recognition or fan base is pretty damn hard.
    I'm a 3D artist, and I'll never get as large a fan base (most people won't even know who I am if I worked on something), than for example a singer would, or someone in that art form.
    Its sad in a way. I know its obvious why singers gain more recognition, but its sad to see some talented people left in the dark.

    Not that I want to be known, but its nice to be recognised at being good at what you do, and no one can really argue with that.
 
 
 
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