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What are the conditions required for a body of matter to be conscious? Watch

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    Ah, a player of the Glad Game I think I approve of that.
    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    You might not like this but we actually need pain, in order to understand what its really like not to feel it...
    Not true - if you had never felt pain, ever, and it hadn't even crossed your mind that it might be possible to feel pain (you had a non-painful alert to danger), and suddenly agony was sprung upon you every time you used to receive a calm warning that something dangerous was happening, would you think that was a good thing? If you would not think that was a good thing, then you must think that pain is worse than "no pain, but a painless method of knowing what is bad".
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    (Original post by Smaug123)
    Ah, a player of the Glad Game I think I approve of that.

    Not true - if you had never felt pain, ever, and it hadn't even crossed your mind that it might be possible to feel pain (you had a non-painful alert to danger), and suddenly agony was sprung upon you every time you used to receive a calm warning that something dangerous was happening, would you think that was a good thing? If you would not think that was a good thing, then you must think that pain is worse than "no pain, but a painless method of knowing what is bad".
    You could argue that, but in reality that would never happen..from personal experience pain has led me to where i am today and many other people i know, sometimes its a blessing in disguise haha life is crazy but thats why i love it
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    I agree much of mainstream science is of course fact and true (im doing all sciences for A level!). But the way science is at the moment, it just doesnt give us any answers about the meaning of life and this is where the philosophy comes in, its so exciting!
    I agree, but there is a good reason for that. Science should never step on the toes of meaning, as meaning is ultimately subjective. Science gives you the tools and knowledge of the world around you, it's up to the individual to apply meaning and purpose. The problem arises when 'meaning' and 'fact' are confused, where claims are passed off as opinion or vice versa.

    An example would be Carl Sagan. He (as others did) put forward the idea of the world being a single organism, and the universe as an entity in itself. He did not however, make new claims, only interpreted existing ones. The idea the the earth is a single organism is not putting forward any new facts, and has no bearing on how the world functions, only how we perceive it.

    So while I agree with you to a point. There is a big difference between making a claim about the whereabouts of consciousness, and deciding what to do with the knowledge we already have.

    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    What interests me is your change in belief system... What caused you to become dogmatic again?
    Well, naturally I don't think of myself as dogmatic. But it started through self-reflection, and the understanding that it's difficult to trust my senses, but it's even more difficult to trust my intuition and emotions. While you can never know anything for sure, we base our lives on assumptions within assumptions. The first being that we can trust our own thought process.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    The first being that we can trust our own thought process.
    You get some very interesting science if you assume that you can't trust your own thought processes - we have to assume certain amounts of trust, but the field of cognitive bias is fascinating.
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    I thought it was just that it had to be aware of it's own existence?
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    So im guessing youre not willing to falsify that information yourself then?
    I'm not going to waste time on that. My experiment is over.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    And how can you possibly define 'messed up' without using your own subjective opinion and personal experience?
    You haven't answered the question though have you?

    However one defines a consciousness being 'messed up', it is clear that alterations to the physical matter that constitute the brain result in changes in consciousness. People who suffer brain trauma or who develop brain tumours can lose vast swathes of their memory and can undergo dramatic changes in personality due to the damage to their physical brain. Moreover, conditions such as Capgras syndrome demonstrate how perception and interpretation of reality can also be altered by physical changes in the brain. So how do you explain these phenomenon from a dualist position?
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    (Original post by The_Last_Melon)
    I don't think possessing a brain is enough of an explanation really. I don't see why something can't be conscious in other dimensions or using other chemicals or reactions.

    Sometimes I like to thing trees, the Sun and even non-physical entities like footpaths have their own consciousness.

    What do you think?
    If our consciousness isn't a result of the physical brain, why do people's personalities change if they get brain damage?
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    I agree, but there is a good reason for that. Science should never step on the toes of meaning, as meaning is ultimately subjective. Science gives you the tools and knowledge of the world around you, it's up to the individual to apply meaning and purpose. The problem arises when 'meaning' and 'fact' are confused, where claims are passed off as opinion or vice versa.

    An example would be Carl Sagan. He (as others did) put forward the idea of the world being a single organism, and the universe as an entity in itself. He did not however, make new claims, only interpreted existing ones. The idea the the earth is a single organism is not putting forward any new facts, and has no bearing on how the world functions, only how we perceive it.

    So while I agree with you to a point. There is a big difference between making a claim about the whereabouts of consciousness, and deciding what to do with the knowledge we already have.



    Well, naturally I don't think of myself as dogmatic. But it started through self-reflection, and the understanding that it's difficult to trust my senses, but it's even more difficult to trust my intuition and emotions. While you can never know anything for sure, we base our lives on assumptions within assumptions. The first being that we can trust our own thought process.
    OH yea have you seen the film 'Contact'? Was written by Sagan. In a way that explains it all perfectly with regards to evidence and beliefs.
    So you kinda went from one extreme to the other and not in the middle? I would say im in balance with the spiritual and scientific aspects. But i can understand that sometimes when you start to realise your inner demons, instead of digging out the root, its sometimes easier to suppress them and because science doesnt question who you are as a person its easier. But science is also pretty interesting in itself, i can see how some people get lost in it because some things are just truly fascinating. But yea thats interesting how you analysed yourself there its good how your honest about it.
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    (Original post by hungergeist)
    You haven't answered the question though have you?

    However one defines a consciousness being 'messed up', it is clear that alterations to the physical matter that constitute the brain result in changes in consciousness. People who suffer brain trauma or who develop brain tumours can lose vast swathes of their memory and can undergo dramatic changes in personality due to the damage to their physical brain. Moreover, conditions such as Capgras syndrome demonstrate how perception and interpretation of reality can also be altered by physical changes in the brain. So how do you explain these phenomenon from a dualist position?
    Even more stunning would be neglect syndrome or Balint's syndrome, both demonstrating that all of our actions are entirely determined by our brain's circuitry!

    Example: a patient suffering from neglect syndrome cannot eat food from the left half of a plate!
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Oh okay i see what you mean now. And how do you know i dont have any understanding...And of course there are other ways of existing unmaterialistically its called being spiritual, just look at Buddhist monks sounds like your waiting for someone else to figure it out for you, my advice is to change that way of thinking and start taking control of your own beliefs because no one else can do that for you.
    Are you one of those new age type people? Do you believe in spirits and all that? Just asking.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    So you kinda went from one extreme to the other and not in the middle? I would say im in balance with the spiritual and scientific aspects.
    I don't think there really is a 'middle'. It's important to question, and things shouldn't be automatically accepted, or disregarded because of their source. I think generally though, we are all subject to the information we are given, and it leads us to different places.

    (Original post by Smaug123)
    You get some very interesting science if you assume that you can't trust your own thought processes - we have to assume certain amounts of trust, but the field of cognitive bias is fascinating.
    It's the problem with trying to understand the world with an imperfect and fundamentally flawed system.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    OH yea have you seen the film 'Contact'? Was written by Sagan. In a way that explains it all perfectly with regards to evidence and beliefs.
    Do you base all your beliefs on works of fiction and the ideas of conspiracy theorists? So far you have mentioned Esoteric Agenda, Contact, and Kymatica. How do Tolkien's Middle Earth, Rowling's Hogwarts and Pratchett's Discworld fit into your world view?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Do you base all your beliefs on works of fiction and the ideas of conspiracy theorists? So far you have mentioned Esoteric Agenda, Contact, and Kymatica. How do Tolkien's Middle Earth, Rowling's Hogwarts and Pratchett's Discworld fit into your world view?
    Don't knock Middle-Earth - Lord of the Rings is arguably better than the Bible in terms of moral guidance!
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Do you base all your beliefs on works of fiction and the ideas of conspiracy theorists? So far you have mentioned Esoteric Agenda, Contact, and Kymatica. How do Tolkien's Middle Earth, Rowling's Hogwarts and Pratchett's Discworld fit into your world view?
    They dont. Next question..
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    (Original post by Smaug123)
    Don't knock Middle-Earth - Lord of the Rings is arguably better than the Bible in terms of moral guidance!
    I wasn't knocking it at all, merely using as a well-known fictional reality. I love the book.
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    They dont. Next question..
    You only answered the second question of two. What about the first?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You only answered the second question of two. What about the first?
    Well, obviously not all my beliefs but i pick out some ideas from them and sort of develop them with my own understanding
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    (Original post by VK96)
    Are you one of those new age type people? Do you believe in spirits and all that? Just asking.
    Hi i am new age, i guess but i would not like to be categorised as a certain type of person. I do believe in spirits, i would tell you about all the crazy stuff ive witnessed but i dont think it would be appropriate on here, especially with all the hostility and bad rep i seem to be acquiring lol. I only came on this site to help with revision haha but it has been interesting. Why do you ask?
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    (Original post by lilytheblue)
    Hi i am new age, i guess but i would not like to be categorised as a certain type of person. I do believe in spirits, i would tell you about all the crazy stuff ive witnessed but i dont think it would be appropriate on here, especially with all the hostility and bad rep i seem to be acquiring lol. I only came on this site to help with revision haha but it has been interesting. Why do you ask?
    It's just that I am interested in new ideas and people saying that they have witnessed things which are deemed paranormal I would love to hear about what you have witnessed!
 
 
 
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