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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Well then, it's domestic policy that is failing us then.

    I'm not saying that EU regulation does not limit us in some way but until we are the number 1 exporter (as a percentage of GDP in Europe) i just don't think you can cloud over any domestic failure and blame it on the EU. This of course excludes the fact that most important countries are at the very least in negotiations with the EU for a trade agreement.
    The issue being that they are in negotiations with the EU. Not the UK. That means that the deal will be tailored to the EU's objectives (a federal europe, let's not even pretend that it's a trade group any more) not to the advantage of the UK or other member states.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    The issue being that they are in negotiations with the EU. Not the UK. That means that the deal will be tailored to the EU's objectives (a federal europe, let's not even pretend that it's a trade group any more) not to the advantage of the UK or other member states.
    Perhaps but you can also take the view that as a much larger market they'd get a significantly better treaty anyway.

    Agreed, at some point we will have to be truly In or Out but for now i say stick as we are.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Perhaps but you can also take the view that as a much larger market they'd get a significantly better treaty anyway.

    Agreed, at some point we will have to be truly In or Out but for now i say stick as we are.
    Why is now not the time? What are you hoping will happen in the next few years? What relationship with Europe do you actually want?
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Perhaps but you can also take the view that as a much larger market they'd get a significantly better treaty anyway.

    Agreed, at some point we will have to be truly In or Out but for now i say stick as we are.
    As I see it, sooner or later the UK will have to decide whether it wishes to remain a sovereign nation, or to become a province of a European superstate. Every year we delay, the EU erodes our sovereignty with another wave of legislation and regulation, and our economy moves further away from what is profitable and towards what is subsidised. I see no benefit to waiting until this decision is forced upon us, as it will surely be worse for the UK and the EU to waste time preparing for a superstate we don't want to join. Equally, should the electorate decide they want to be part of a superstate, then the preparations would be all the easier for finally getting some measure of democratic legitimacy.
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    Why is now not the time? What are you hoping will happen in the next few years? What relationship with Europe do you actually want?
    Personally i view membership of the EU as preferable to EFTA or out however i view the Eurozone and EU as having structural flaws that make it currently unfit for us to join the Eurozone/federation. As such, i want us to stay as we are until such time as we are either given an ultimatum, the Eurozone does something i consider really bad or it is sufficiently reformed.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Personally i view membership of the EU as preferable to EFTA or out however i view the Eurozone and EU as having structural flaws that make it currently unfit for us to join the Eurozone/federation. As such, i want us to stay as we are until such time as we are either given an ultimatum, the Eurozone does something i consider really bad or it is sufficiently reformed.
    If I understand correctly you ultimately you want a federal Europe with a fully subsumed UK? This sitting on the sidelines hasn't done any good so far, it seems like the weakest possible position to adopt: "sleepwalking towards the exit door," as bloody Ed Miliband put it. Yet there doesn't appear to be any appetite to dig the country in deeper and reform the structural flaws you identify. If the people of the country don't want to be in the EU, then trying to integrate further is just not going to work. Neither is grimly holding on in the hope that the EU will reform itself. That's why I believe a referendum is needed, one way or the other, and the time for that referendum is now. Only then can the UK's relationship with the EU be entrenched or severed with confidence and poise.
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    (Original post by the mezzil)
    Exactly, prancing around the world as head of corporate communications, with the firm's boss Michael Green. It was a non job of being Michael Green's mouthpiece.

    "To describe Cameron's approach to corporate PR as unhelpful and evasive overstates by a widish margin the clarity and plain-speaking that he brought to the job of being Michael Green's mouthpiece, In my experience, Cameron never gave a straight answer when dissemblance was a plausible alternative, which probably makes him perfectly suited for the role he now seeks: the next Tony Blair," - Jeff Randall
    And this makes him less suitable to handle the economy?

    Bearing in mind both Cameron and Miliband have been educated to a high standard in economics and your only claim to Farage's economic superiority is that "he's had a job", I'm still unconvinced by your argument.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Cherry picked poll.

    The ICM has Ukip 6 points behind on 9%, i can cherry pick as well.

    Ukip will gain but if they double the Lib Dems, i will stick my finger up my own ass.
    I will hold you to this.
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    (Original post by tufc)
    I will hold you to this.
    He is clearly looking forward to it (not that there's anything wrong with that).
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    (Original post by TritonSails)
    A dangerous bunch of nutters who are almost as wrong as possible on almost everything they can be wrong about.
    Nowhere as dangerous as those who want to dissolve european governements and have a super EU sate!
 
 
 
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