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    Personally, I'd attribute being a goth to marginalisation. They join the subculture for a feeling od belonging, because they're rejected by society anyway for numerous factors, could be how they look, their music taste etc.
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    It's called a subculture, they probably can't fit into the indie crowd/hipster/black culture/chavs so they've gone goth-wards. It's a counter-culture if not sub-culture. I think they are making a statement about how they don't fit in.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    My argument is simply that the idea that no one would choose to be homosexual, thus it must be genetic, is a weak one. Something does not have to be genetic to be accepted. It's not as though it is obligatory to oppress someone for their choice, so whilst there is no conclusive scientific evidence to suggest either way, why is there the feeling of such a need to attribute everything to genetics?
    Good argument actually +1
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    Good argument actually +1
    It's not though. It doesn't come down to either genetics or a choice

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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    It's not though. It doesn't come down to either genetics or a choice
    Enlighten us all then if you have the all elusive answer?
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    Enlighten us all then if you have the all elusive answer?
    I'm not claiming to have an answer. What I mean is that, considering the nature vs nurture argument, dismissing the genetics argument doesn't prove it's a choice

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    (Original post by telephone)
    Can the argument not likewise be used for other minorities such as the goth subculture. Is it really reasonable to say that someone can genetically be a goth? That their DNA has lead them to wear the black clothes and white makeup that are the source of their marginalisation?
    I do think it is somewhat similar. Though not as simple as being 'their DNA' (see next section). And like being gay, you're desires are not really a choice, but how you act of them is. So while liking gothic clothing, wearing black, gothic music and so on is not really a choice, it's something that's developed over time, going out and dressing as a goth is a choice.

    However, I feel that it has no bearing on whether it should be accepted. Going out and having sexual relations with members of the same sex is a choice (as much as anything is), that doesn't mean that people should or shouldn't do it. To take a somewhat extreme example, we don't approach people with serious illnesses by claiming that it's their right to suffer from this disease, and that others should respect it and stop trying to 'fix' them. In the case of homosexuality and Gothism, neither are harming themselves or anyone else, and that's what makes it acceptable.

    But essentially, yes. We don't really have any choice as to any of our desires. To quote someone else "We can do as we will, but we cannot will what we will".

    (Original post by ufo2012)
    Enlighten us all then if you have the all elusive answer?
    I'm not sure what their answer was going to be, but:

    Preferences (in this case sexuality) is developed over time through various influencing factors, some of what are genetic. But I would be completely surprised if there is one or several genes which make people attracted to the same sex. Sexuality is complex, and you are not born with it, but develop it over time based on environmental influences interacting with your genetic predispositions (like pretty much everything else). This is why sexuality is so different for different people, they have developed vastly different sexualities with certain aspects having something in common with others, but still being somewhat distinct.
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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    It's not though. It doesn't come down to either genetics or a choice
    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    I'm not claiming to have an answer. What I mean is that, considering the nature vs nurture argument, dismissing the genetics argument doesn't prove it's a choice
    But your previous quote seems to suggest you have an answer. If not that, even a hypothesis.

    If you are saying it is not either, what is it then? It can't be nothing, it has to be something.
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    You don't chose the goth life... the goth life chooses you.
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    And then when you hit 16/17 most people grow out of it.
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    (Original post by ufo2012)
    But your previous quote seems to suggest you have an answer. If not that, even a hypothesis.

    If you are saying it is not either, what is it then? It can't be nothing, it has to be something.
    You misunderstand my point

    All I'm saying is that dismissing genetics as a reason doesn't make it a choice

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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    Because whether or not it's genetic, being gay isn't a choice

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    Yes it is.
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    (Original post by cartman)
    Yes it is.
    Proof?

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    (Original post by cartman)
    Yes it is.
    Are you straight? When did you choose to be straight?


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    (Original post by Eljamaispa)
    Are you straight? When did you choose to be straight?


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    When I was young and was on the beach I saw topless women and just remember being fascinated with the female body. From then on I made a concious decision to be straight.

    But anyway, God made woman for man, not man for man.
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    (Original post by cartman)
    When I was young and was on the beach I saw topless women and just remember being fascinated with the female body. From then on I made a concious decision to be straight.

    But anyway, God made woman for man, not man for man.
    I'm not going to argue with your first point, if that's how it was for you, then fair enough. Although personally I didn't make a choice

    The second point however seems strange - surely even if that's true that just means heterosexuality is the norm?

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    (Original post by shadowdweller)
    Proof?

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    You can either accept that there is no concrete "proof" either way and thus drop the certainty of your opinion. Or you can produce some of your own proof before demanding it from everyone else as though you've won the argument.

    Or alternatively the discussion could revert back to what was originally intended, which was an argument based on deduction.
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    (Original post by telephone)
    You can either accept that there is no concrete "proof" either way and thus drop the certainty of your opinion. Or you can produce some of your own proof before demanding it from everyone else as though you've won the argument.

    Or alternatively the discussion could revert back to what was originally intended, which was an argument based on deduction.
    I'm certain I never made a choice, hence being certain on my opinion. And I'm not trying to ask other people for proof as a way of winning the argument.

    I'm not sure what discussion was intended

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    (Original post by telephone)
    But why don't goths just do so and save themselves the trouble
    why should they??

    People should be able to dress however they want without expecting trouble. if people have a problem with it, its other peoples not the goths
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    (Original post by Lexi99)
    why should they??

    People should be able to dress however they want without expecting trouble. if people have a problem with it, its other peoples not the goths
    No doubt you call certain people "chavs" from the way they dress, no? Am I right or not?!?!?
 
 
 
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