Undercover soldiers 'killed unarmed civilians in Belfast' Watch

Unruly Marmite
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#61
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#61
(Original post by felamaslen)
Well I think the wider point is that Britain supports democracy, and the IRA don't, and that is why I don't support the IRA, and it is why I support the British in this conflict.
In my view, everybody supports democracy, but only when it's expedient. It's only a few people who support Democracy when it doesn't help them, so you're probably right there.
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pol pot noodles
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#62
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
James McClean should not have been pressured to wear a poppy given the obvious sensitivity of the issue for a nationalist from Derry. End of. The fact that you are trying to blame him for the "flame wars" that ensued on twitter highlights your bias. Because he chose not to wear one, he was snubbing it? Every year Irish (and indeed English/Scottish/Welsh) people are pressured in to wearing a poppy by the British press. In the absence of Poppy Fascism it would not have been noticed. Its hardly a choice if you are verbally attacked for making the wrong choice, is it? He was targeted because of his opinion. Such Poppy fascism is unjustifiable.
I never said anything about pressure. I offered an possible alternative motivation for him wearing one. I never blamed him for the flame wars, however the fact is he got involved in one. Stop arguing points that I'm not making. Also please spare me the accusations of bias, it always amuses me when a clearly rampant Irish nationalist starts calling people biased. I hold equal contempt for both nationalists and loyalists who refuse to move on from the past.
And again, do you even understand the concept of facism?


The fact that other people use the term as ridiculously as you do doesn't stop it being a completely asinine thing to say.

(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
For the record, the poppy appeal is a British thing. The French and Americans have their own thing. It is not a part of any official Irish remembrance program largely due to the role of the British Army in the Irish War of independence, the civil war and the troubles.
No, it is used across the Commonwealth Anglosphere countries, worn in Hong Kong by their government and also in America by the American Legion Auxillary, while the French simply wear blue cornflower poppies instead.

(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
Secondly, your point on Neocolonialism is nonsense. The invasion of Iraq was a premise to export and a mechanism used to instill a neocolonialist program in the region, hence my use of brackets to differentiate from traditional colonialism within such a military context.
No, my point on neocolonialism is factually correct. Even if the invasion of Iraq was for the reasons you state, which it wasn't, that would not be a neocolonial conflict. You can not change the definition of words to suit yourself.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#63
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#63
(Original post by felamaslen)
If there is no objective moral framework then surely everybody is right and everybody is wrong, and it doesn't really warrant talking about?

By the way, just because Sinn Fein are in government, does not mean they are respectable or democratic. Maybe they are; I haven't done much research on them to be honest.
If you haven't done your research why would you say they don't support democracy? They clearly do.
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felamaslen
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(Original post by Unruly Marmite)
In my view, everybody supports democracy, but only when it's expedient. It's only a few people who support Democracy when it doesn't help them, so you're probably right there.
Democracy when it's expedient is like "free speech, provided you agree with me". I guess that's how the Soviets had the nerve to call East Germany the "German Democratic Republic". :rolleyes:

(Although, saying that, I do think that democracy is more than simple majority-will, and should protect the interests of minorities.)
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felamaslen
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
If you haven't done your research why would you say they don't support democracy? They clearly do.
If you read carefully, you'll see that what I actually did was deny the implication of "in government, therefore democratic".
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GR3YFOXXX
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#66
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
I never said anything about pressure. I offered an possible alternative motivation for him wearing one. I never blamed him for the flame wars, however the fact is he got involved in one. Stop arguing points that I'm not making. Also please spare me the accusations of bias, it always amuses me when a clearly rampant Irish nationalist starts calling people biased. I hold equal contempt for both nationalists and loyalists who refuse to move on from the past.
And again, do you even understand the concept of facism?

You're clearly biased, you don't even come close to understanding the subject matter or the legacy issues. Your poppy argument is back tracking. He was verbally attacked because of his choice




The fact that other people use the term as ridiculously as you do doesn't stop it being a completely asinine thing to say. No, I'll think you find it does



No, it is used across the Commonwealth Anglosphere countries, worn in Hong Kong by their government and also in America by the American Legion Auxillary, while the French simply wear blue cornflower poppies instead.
Hong Kong may be involved because it was formally a part of the Empire... same goes for the commonwealth. The main point you ignored, principally Ireland and the fact that it is principally a British tradition



No, my point on neocolonialism is factually correct. Even if the invasion of Iraq was for the reasons you state, which it wasn't, that would not be a neocolonial conflict. You can not change the definition of words to suit yourself.
I haven't changed the meaning, hence the brackets...(conveniently ignored)
You have failed to make a single relevant point. See above in bold.
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Drewski
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#67
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
For the record, the poppy appeal is a British thing. The French and Americans have their own thing.
:fyi: Use of the poppy as a symbol of remembrance after a poem - written by a Canadian doctor, Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae - inspired an American woman, Moina Michael, to both write her own poem and wear the a silken poppy badge/broach of her own making. This became a convention in the US first and was then adopted by a French woman, Anna E. Guérin, who introduced it to Britain in 1921.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#68
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(Original post by arson_fire)
Not in the interests of the republican PR machine to concede they were involved is it?
what...?
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Unruly Marmite
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#69
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(Original post by felamaslen)
Democracy when it's expedient is like "free speech, provided you agree with me". I guess that's how the Soviets had the nerve to call East Germany the "German Democratic Republic". :rolleyes:

(Although, saying that, I do think that democracy is more than simple majority-will, and should protect the interests of minorities.)
Democracy! Yay! Not really relevant, but this reminds me slightly of the original Greek form of Democracy- Anyone could vote! Provided you were a male, and not a slave, a peasant, a foreigner or anything like that. Democracy, I think, works because everybody has a voice, but sometimes it's used as a cover- e.g I think Zimbabwe is technically a democracy, but what're the chances of someone beating Mugabe in a vote?
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GR3YFOXXX
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#70
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(Original post by Drewski)
:fyi: Use of the poppy as a symbol of remembrance after a poem - written by a Canadian doctor, Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae - inspired an American woman, Moina Michael, to both write her own poem and wear the a silken poppy badge/broach of her own making. This became a convention in the US first and was then adopted by a French woman, Anna E. Guérin, who introduced it to Britain in 1921.
I'm not talking about the use of a poppy as a symbol, rather the POPPY APPEAL. Please read...
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Drewski
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#71
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
I'm not talking about the use of a poppy as a symbol, rather the POPPY APPEAL. Please read...
The RBL Poppy Appeal is UK-only, because no two charities in the UK would be silly enough to use the same symbol. But as has been said, many other countries around the world use the poppy as a symbol of their remembrance and by service charities.
Hell, there's even a purple poppy - and charity appeal - for animal victims of war.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#72
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BTW just wan't to emphasize how off topic this debate has gotten. The British army had secret death squads that killed at least 10 Nationalist civilians. Try and stick to the thread title.
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felamaslen
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#73
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(Original post by Unruly Marmite)
Democracy! Yay! Not really relevant, but this reminds me slightly of the original Greek form of Democracy- Anyone could vote! Provided you were a male, and not a slave, a peasant, a foreigner or anything like that. Democracy, I think, works because everybody has a voice, but sometimes it's used as a cover- e.g I think Zimbabwe is technically a democracy, but what're the chances of someone beating Mugabe in a vote?
Zimbabwe is about as democratic as Ba'athist Iraq. It's a sham democracy. I mean, a real sham democracy (not what Russell Brand might term a sham democracy, which is a euphemism for a democracy where most people don't share your opinions) - like Iran. It'll be interesting to see what kind of mayhem occurs when Mugabe finally dies though. I can't believe people criticise that country so little; it's at least as bad and racist as apartheid South Africa was. Maybe people don't care because the racism is in the opposite direction this time.

I think democracy, especially in combination with moderate capitalism, works because it stops people from wanting to kill each other all the time. Simple as that really.
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by Drewski)
The RBL Poppy Appeal is UK-only, because no two charities in the UK would be silly enough to use the same symbol. But as has been said, many other countries around the world use the poppy as a symbol of their remembrance and by service charities.
Hell, there's even a purple poppy - and charity appeal - for animal victims of war.
The point above is entirely irrelevant as to why James McClean should wear one...
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Unruly Marmite
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#75
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Back on topic: secret death squads. I certainly don't approve, after all this is the twentieth century, not Cromwell and his troopers! Although, if the death squads had kept quiet, would this have ever come out? Not that I'm condoning this in any way. I considered taking the 'The IRA were just as bad' line but that's the equivalent to the playground 'He started it!' in my view.
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Drewski
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#76
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
The point above is entirely irrelevant as to why James McClean should wear one...
I've never said he should or should not. I'm just very aware of how the poppy has been misrepresented over the years (seemingly moreso recently).

If people choose not to wear one that is their decision. But I want them to make that decision based on the correct information. Maths analogy: The working is just as important as the solution.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#77
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(Original post by arson_fire)
Do you honestly think the republican PR machine would allow them to be portrayed by the media as members? "Undercover soldiers killed 10 IRA terrorists" doesn`t quite tug at the heartstrings as much does it?
The IRA didn't make the documentary...the BBC did? Are claiming the BBC Panorama team read the editorial by the IRA?! What nonsense...
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GR3YFOXXX
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(Original post by Drewski)
I've never said he should or should not. I'm just very aware of how the poppy has been misrepresented over the years (seemingly moreso recently).

If people choose not to wear one that is their decision. But I want them to make that decision based on the correct information. Maths analogy: The working is just as important as the solution.
I agree with you. I believe James made the correct decision.
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Drewski
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#79
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(Original post by GR3YFOXXX)
I agree with you. I believe James made the correct decision.
I can definitely understand why he made the decision and have massive -and genuine- sympathy for the dilemma it places him in. But I do think he would have won more admiration if he had come out wearing it and explaining exactly why, telling those who get angry about it that they're getting angry for reasons many would disagree with.
Would it change everybody's mind? Almost definitely not, but it's things like that that will help everyone in NI move on. We shouldn't ever forget what's happened there, but neither should it overshadow the future. If people carry on living in the past then it'll never get better.
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GR3YFOXXX
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#80
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(Original post by Drewski)
I can definitely understand why he made the decision and have massive -and genuine- sympathy for the dilemma it places him in. But I do think he would have won more admiration if he had come out wearing it and explaining exactly why, telling those who get angry about it that they're getting angry for reasons many would disagree with.
Would it change everybody's mind? Almost definitely not, but it's things like that that will help everyone in NI move on. We shouldn't ever forget what's happened there, but neither should it overshadow the future. If people carry on living in the past then it'll never get better.
He would have been a pariah in his own town. Why should he wear it just to make a few English people happy?
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