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Would Muslim-Only flights stop terrorism in our skies?
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obviously samba
Indeed. An excellent idea 6+6=6! We should demand this of the government immediately
See any similarities guys?
(ps: why dont you think hezbollah are terrorists?)
See any similarities guys?
(ps: why dont you think hezbollah are terrorists?)
I don't? cant remeber saying that, but yer I suppose I do think they are'nt terrorists. I think Israel laying landmines all over Southern Lebanon and refusing to hand over the plans of where they laid them is terroristic, i think hitting Haifa with rockets is wrong, but I'm not as quick to cal Hezbollah terrorists for this, IMO the word terrorist is all too often bandied around now and if Hezbollah are considered terrorists then thre are other organisations who are also terrorists. bare in mind ive not slept in a while so entering into serious discussion right now is not wise and the above may make no sense.
I would define Terrorism as the use of violence on civilian targets, in order to inflict damage to the morale of a population or draw attention to a cause. The Hezbollah rocket attacks perfectly fit this, being indiscriminate in their targetting. The Israeli use of landmines, dispicable though it may be, has tactical significance, thus making it less "terroristic".
Of course, under my definition the allied bombing runs and nuclear assualts during WW2 were terroristic, moreso than the foiled Pentagon plane attack during 9/11 would have been, so take that as you will.
How would you define terrorism, I suppose is the important question.
I have no problem with this, in fact it is the current situation with stop-and-searches (that more suspiscious people are targetted, not white people I mean). But segregated flights is far more extreme a measure, and would require a much greater justification than "most terrorists are Muslim". If random airport searches mostly focused on young men, and mostly on Arabs, that would be perfectly sensible, but separate flights for Muslims is a totally different suggestion, and, as I noted before, it would merely ensure only Muslims would be killed anyway.
Of course, under my definition the allied bombing runs and nuclear assualts during WW2 were terroristic, moreso than the foiled Pentagon plane attack during 9/11 would have been, so take that as you will.
How would you define terrorism, I suppose is the important question.
tehjonny
If in an area EVERY SINGLE dealer was white, I would expect young white men to be targetted for drugs searches etc, and I would understand, if I was stopped, why I was stopped. Surely you can understand this reasoning. I don't 'believe' anything about this lol, I'm considering, just as you are.
*SNIP*
However, as I have stated again and again, if 100% of the crime in this countr was committed by white people, I would expect them to be exclusively targetted by the police, and would have no problems with this. Say 100% of all burglaries are committed by white males (young), what would be the point in targeting the elderly black females in Britain? None what-so-ever, it would simply be incompetence and money wasting so as not to 'offend' some people. Which strikes me as silly. How can you say all people should be targetted when it is blindly obvious some are not going to commit any illegal act? Its overblown PC-ness, and makes no sense.
Of course, you should never be an automatic suspect because of your race or religious creed, that goes without saying...I hope
.
*SNIP*
However, as I have stated again and again, if 100% of the crime in this countr was committed by white people, I would expect them to be exclusively targetted by the police, and would have no problems with this. Say 100% of all burglaries are committed by white males (young), what would be the point in targeting the elderly black females in Britain? None what-so-ever, it would simply be incompetence and money wasting so as not to 'offend' some people. Which strikes me as silly. How can you say all people should be targetted when it is blindly obvious some are not going to commit any illegal act? Its overblown PC-ness, and makes no sense.
Of course, you should never be an automatic suspect because of your race or religious creed, that goes without saying...I hope
.I have no problem with this, in fact it is the current situation with stop-and-searches (that more suspiscious people are targetted, not white people I mean). But segregated flights is far more extreme a measure, and would require a much greater justification than "most terrorists are Muslim". If random airport searches mostly focused on young men, and mostly on Arabs, that would be perfectly sensible, but separate flights for Muslims is a totally different suggestion, and, as I noted before, it would merely ensure only Muslims would be killed anyway.
chloeprice
Oh its still hilarious 6+6, I can't beleive your so *is there any other word other than plain ol' NAIVE????*
Idiot.
Idiot.
Would you like to rebutt what he's said then?
KieranP
I have no problem with this, in fact it is the current situation with stop-and-searches (that more suspiscious people are targetted, not white people I mean). But segregated flights is far more extreme a measure, and would require a much greater justification than "most terrorists are Muslim". If random airport searches mostly focused on young men, and mostly on Arabs, that would be perfectly sensible, but separate flights for Muslims is a totally different suggestion, and, as I noted before, it would merely ensure only Muslims would be killed anyway.
I haven't been advocating segregated flights, rather that we target the most suspicious people...if they are not guilty, surely they should understand why it is done, being British and all? I agree with you that profiling is a practical if unsavoury measure.
Some people however, are saying that you can't do this because it is discriminatory etc. I would expect this to be done in every area, and for every crime surely? As I've said, why target an old lady when it is mostly young men who commit crimes (burglary, assault etc)? You can't pay equal attention to everyone, every person and every group in the name of equality, if an ethnic group commits a disproportionate amount of a given crime you have to target them. You have to focus on those committing the offence, and this can be applied to the present 'terrorist' situation. You can't also focus on those who are most likely not going to commit the offense in the name of equality, because it makes no practical sense.
Of course whilst your doing that you have to make efforts at tackling why various groups commit more of this crime or that crime, so that it doesn't always have to be the case.
I have one word. "Apartheid".
Well, a few more words, actually, while I'm here. Any kind of, haha, "special treatment" for Muslim flyers overlooks the absolutely crucial fact that many of those who carry out atrocities are converts. And a higher proportion of Muslim converts are going to be white than you'd find among people brought up in Muslim households for x generations. So not to check white people etc. too is to leave a hole in our security.
And of course when a white Muslim convert does eventually waltz through Heathrow with a bulging 85l rucksack, past the mile-long queue of dark-skinned people having their handbags, hijabs and turbans screened, and blows up a jumbo jet, the same people who call today for an unequal approach to screening based on race will blame the government for not screening carefully enough.
Well, a few more words, actually, while I'm here. Any kind of, haha, "special treatment" for Muslim flyers overlooks the absolutely crucial fact that many of those who carry out atrocities are converts. And a higher proportion of Muslim converts are going to be white than you'd find among people brought up in Muslim households for x generations. So not to check white people etc. too is to leave a hole in our security.
And of course when a white Muslim convert does eventually waltz through Heathrow with a bulging 85l rucksack, past the mile-long queue of dark-skinned people having their handbags, hijabs and turbans screened, and blows up a jumbo jet, the same people who call today for an unequal approach to screening based on race will blame the government for not screening carefully enough.
Paragraph six should, I think, show how ineffective and stupid racial profiling is.
The Case for Screening Air Passengers -- Rather than Belongings
Irish airline Ryanair issued an ultimatum to the British government Aug. 18 to restore normal airport security measures within a week or risk being sued by the company for compensation. Ryanair said it faces more than $3.7 million in losses from disrupted flight schedules in the aftermath of the plot to destroy aircraft in flight using liquid explosives. In announcing the foiled plot Aug. 10, the British government immediately banned passengers from bringing carry-on luggage and liquids of all kinds aboard planes originating in the United Kingdom.
Liquid explosives do pose a serious threat to airliners in flight, although a review of previous plots against planes indicates these types of explosives are not the only thing security services need to be concerned about. Moreover, militants can be expected to adapt to evolving airline security measures.
The British case is reminiscent of Operation Bojinka, a plot to use a modular explosive device made of a doll stuffed with nitrocellulose and augmented by a bottle of liquid explosive. North Korean agents used liquid explosive PLX, disguised as a fifth of liquor, to destroy KAL Flight 858 in 1987. A number of other powerful, commercially manufactured liquid explosives also could be used to attack an airliner, such as nitroglycerine and Astrolite. Improvised versions of these explosives also can be manufactured.
Creative bombmakers have hidden explosives in a number of imaginative ways, perhaps most notably the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), which did some outside-the-box thinking when it melted the explosives TNT and Composition B and cast them into a variety of shapes, including a tea set. PFLP-GC also hid Semtex and other plastic explosives in a variety of items, including running shoes and electronics.
In fact, electronics also have been a popular choice for bombmakers looking to smuggle an improvised explosive device (IED) aboard planes. Perhaps the most famous case is the Libyan-constructed device concealed inside a Toshiba radio cassette player that was used to bring down Pan Am Flight 103. Similar devices hidden in another model of Toshiba cassette player were found in a raid on a PFLP-GC safe house in Germany a few months before the Pan Am 103 bombing.
In the 1987 KAL case, the firing train and a small charge of C-4 hidden inside the radio were used to initiate the PLX. In a London case in 1986, Nezar Hindawi, a Jordanian who later acknowledged working for Syrian intelligence, gave his unwitting and pregnant Irish girlfriend an IED concealed in bag to take on an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv. The timer and detonator for the device were concealed in a pocket calculator. El Al security detected the device before it could be taken aboard the plane, and Hindawi was quickly arrested. In 1996, Israelis used an IED concealed in a cell phone to assassinate Yahya Ayyash, aka "The Engineer," an infamous Hamas bombmaker.
These are only past IED incidents involving airplanes, though it is important to point out that, as security measures change, terrorist tactics also will adapt, much as narcotics "mules" have adapted to efforts to prevent them from bringing narcotics aboard planes by using everything from body cavities to dead babies.
In addition to Richard Reid's infamous shoe bomb, there are many other ways in which explosives could be "worn" onto a plane. In the bombing of Philippine Airlines Flight 434, Abdel Basit and his associates used nitrocellulose camouflaged inside a doll, though nitrocellulose also could be easily hidden in any number of clothing items that have fiber filling, such as mittens and winter coats. Additionally, the design of the ubiquitous suicide vests and belts could allow explosives to be walked through a magnetometer if all the metal components were removed. In August 2004, Israeli authorities found explosive underwear on a young Palestinian attempting to enter Israel at the Erez border crossing. Because of the Reid plot, all passengers must remove their shoes. Had the Palestinian been attempting to board a plane, there is no telling how the incident would now affect passengers at airline security checkpoints.
It is virtually impossible to use technical screening measures to absolutely prevent explosive material from being brought on board an aircraft. Prison authorities using magnetometers and strip searches have failed to completely prevent all contraband from slipping through. The need for a greater reliance on other methods -- such as name checks, interviews and behavioral profiling -- to keep airplanes safe seems apparent.
The Case for Screening Air Passengers -- Rather than Belongings
Irish airline Ryanair issued an ultimatum to the British government Aug. 18 to restore normal airport security measures within a week or risk being sued by the company for compensation. Ryanair said it faces more than $3.7 million in losses from disrupted flight schedules in the aftermath of the plot to destroy aircraft in flight using liquid explosives. In announcing the foiled plot Aug. 10, the British government immediately banned passengers from bringing carry-on luggage and liquids of all kinds aboard planes originating in the United Kingdom.
Liquid explosives do pose a serious threat to airliners in flight, although a review of previous plots against planes indicates these types of explosives are not the only thing security services need to be concerned about. Moreover, militants can be expected to adapt to evolving airline security measures.
The British case is reminiscent of Operation Bojinka, a plot to use a modular explosive device made of a doll stuffed with nitrocellulose and augmented by a bottle of liquid explosive. North Korean agents used liquid explosive PLX, disguised as a fifth of liquor, to destroy KAL Flight 858 in 1987. A number of other powerful, commercially manufactured liquid explosives also could be used to attack an airliner, such as nitroglycerine and Astrolite. Improvised versions of these explosives also can be manufactured.
Creative bombmakers have hidden explosives in a number of imaginative ways, perhaps most notably the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), which did some outside-the-box thinking when it melted the explosives TNT and Composition B and cast them into a variety of shapes, including a tea set. PFLP-GC also hid Semtex and other plastic explosives in a variety of items, including running shoes and electronics.
In fact, electronics also have been a popular choice for bombmakers looking to smuggle an improvised explosive device (IED) aboard planes. Perhaps the most famous case is the Libyan-constructed device concealed inside a Toshiba radio cassette player that was used to bring down Pan Am Flight 103. Similar devices hidden in another model of Toshiba cassette player were found in a raid on a PFLP-GC safe house in Germany a few months before the Pan Am 103 bombing.
In the 1987 KAL case, the firing train and a small charge of C-4 hidden inside the radio were used to initiate the PLX. In a London case in 1986, Nezar Hindawi, a Jordanian who later acknowledged working for Syrian intelligence, gave his unwitting and pregnant Irish girlfriend an IED concealed in bag to take on an El Al flight from London to Tel Aviv. The timer and detonator for the device were concealed in a pocket calculator. El Al security detected the device before it could be taken aboard the plane, and Hindawi was quickly arrested. In 1996, Israelis used an IED concealed in a cell phone to assassinate Yahya Ayyash, aka "The Engineer," an infamous Hamas bombmaker.
These are only past IED incidents involving airplanes, though it is important to point out that, as security measures change, terrorist tactics also will adapt, much as narcotics "mules" have adapted to efforts to prevent them from bringing narcotics aboard planes by using everything from body cavities to dead babies.
In addition to Richard Reid's infamous shoe bomb, there are many other ways in which explosives could be "worn" onto a plane. In the bombing of Philippine Airlines Flight 434, Abdel Basit and his associates used nitrocellulose camouflaged inside a doll, though nitrocellulose also could be easily hidden in any number of clothing items that have fiber filling, such as mittens and winter coats. Additionally, the design of the ubiquitous suicide vests and belts could allow explosives to be walked through a magnetometer if all the metal components were removed. In August 2004, Israeli authorities found explosive underwear on a young Palestinian attempting to enter Israel at the Erez border crossing. Because of the Reid plot, all passengers must remove their shoes. Had the Palestinian been attempting to board a plane, there is no telling how the incident would now affect passengers at airline security checkpoints.
It is virtually impossible to use technical screening measures to absolutely prevent explosive material from being brought on board an aircraft. Prison authorities using magnetometers and strip searches have failed to completely prevent all contraband from slipping through. The need for a greater reliance on other methods -- such as name checks, interviews and behavioral profiling -- to keep airplanes safe seems apparent.
chloeprice
babble
Oh come on poppet, at least when I insult people I actually attempt to justify it. You going to do the same? Because coming out with;
chloeprice
"terrorists" does indeed = "muslim"
and..
chloeprice
is there any other word other than plain ol' NAIVE????*
...in the very same thread, doesn't inspire a huge amount of confidence in your ability to formulate coherent substantiation for the basis upon which your claims are made.
But let's hear it, ok?
Im Asian I Find This Highly Offneissve Plz Lock!!!!!!
Hotasiangurl88
Im Asian I Find This Highly Offneissve Plz Lock!!!!!!
How hot are you hotasiangurl? Is there a case for you to be strip searched in the name of the war against terror?
I can't believe only one person on this page (i didn't bother to read the rest) has actually thought that most of the suspected bombers were converts, british citizens, hell Dom Stewart-Whyte does that sound like a muslim terrorist to you? Or an upper middle class lad? This is a silly thread.
s0phie-x
I can't believe only one person on this page (i didn't bother to read the rest) has actually thought that most of the suspected bombers were converts, british citizens, hell Dom Stewart-Whyte does that sound like a muslim terrorist to you? Or an upper middle class lad? This is a silly thread.
Don't worry, it has been covered in plenty of detail in the first three pages.
Hotasiangurl88
Im Asian I Find This Highly Offneissve Plz Lock!!!!!!
ARGHHHH, call the police, the army, the queen! **** WW2, this is the real deal man, go go go!
I had a rude customer or five today at work. I was offended, but did I demand we shut the place for 10 minutes so I could have a cry in the corner about it...no.
s0phie-x
I can't believe only one person on this page (i didn't bother to read the rest) has actually thought that most of the suspected bombers were converts, british citizens,
Think you'll find 2 out of 24 does not equate to "most".
it is, however, fairly disproportionate. Given the whole "faith of the converted" factor, we should expect more converts than born Muslims to become terrorists. Plus most of them were Pakistani, so it's likely a fair number of them could pass as Indians/Hindus. And of course, terrorist groups are smart enough to use people who can easily pass for nonMuslims (ie: not Arabs) in suicide assualts on high security areas.
Sorry misread your post, not the first time in the thread I note either, so many apologies: I actually agree with your position that profiling should be targetted at suspiscious people, although the profilers should be instructed to remember muslims have fairly varied ethnicities and terrorists usually wear disguise- but a family is unlikely to be terrorists. This of course, should be suplemented by random searches, just to be sure.
tehjonny
I haven't been advocating segregated flights, rather that we target the most suspicious people...if they are not guilty, surely they should understand why it is done, being British and all? I agree with you that profiling is a practical if unsavoury measure.
Sorry misread your post, not the first time in the thread I note either, so many apologies: I actually agree with your position that profiling should be targetted at suspiscious people, although the profilers should be instructed to remember muslims have fairly varied ethnicities and terrorists usually wear disguise- but a family is unlikely to be terrorists. This of course, should be suplemented by random searches, just to be sure.
chloeprice
Idiot.
I'm sorry, you laughed at the notion that terrorism was rare among muslims. You really shouldn't be calling other people idiots.
There are, what a billion or so muslims in the world? And even counting the Insurgents in Iraq and various Palestinian militant organisations, not all of whom neccesarily automatically fall under the definition of terrorist, there are, at most 100,000 muslim 'terrorists' in the world. And that's a 'generous' estimation.
So that's what, one part in 10000, at most? That pretty much qualifies as rare if you ask me.
alasdair_R
Given the polls showing Muslim support for it from significant proportions in Muslim and Western countries, the open condoning of it from many Islamic figures and the tens of thousands of Muslims (if not many more) who are actually part of terror groups, saying it's 'rare' is laughable.
alasdair_R
And the hundreds of millions who support it?
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