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Computer Science graduates have the highest unemployment rate in the UK? watch

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    I'm doing computer security and forensics at greenwich university and im worried that i wont get a job out of it so i wanted to change to computer science but they wont let me now
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Comp Sci (and the people that study it) as a degree discipline pisses me off sometimes.

    It's a generalist degree that trains you in a thin veneer of everything, so that after 3 years, you know how an operating system works and how to do basic for loops in a piece of code. It does not qualify you to do anything. A couple of modules does not an expert make. What employers are looking for is a level of dedication and expertise from the people they're hiring. Software developers are highly in demand, but what are not in demand are apprentice software developers that take 4 weeks to write a 2 day piece of code, don't know how to interpret requirements and read a design document, and haven't got the first clue about delivering projects and working in the real world.

    It frustrates me that people, especially from more traditional universities, see: good honours degree + skills shortage = £££££££ This is not a true reflection of the real world at all. Similarly, it annoys me that the same people don't consider less traditional disciplines in IT. I personally think that you have to start specialising your skills in this field at an early age to progress. Yes, it closes doors, but if you pick sensibly, you can end up with essentially a job for life and rapid career progression. Programming is boring, in my personal opinion. As is working with DB's and web development. Some people find this interesting, so I'm not going to criticise people for wanting to get into these (relatively financially rewarding) fields. However, there is more out there than this, but you have to specialise and commit to it. Infosec/Cyber is an area that is grossly under-resourced at the moment. Companies are offering silly money for people with the right skills in this area, but yet so few people are even considering it because it doesn't fit with the cookie cutter Comp Sci graduate prospectus. Half the trouble here is that if you're smart and have good A-Levels and are into IT, you're funnelled in to the Comp Sci path, especially where top unis are concerned, yet these courses teach you very little in the way of practical employability, skills and certainly don't give you any specialism, which causes you then to miss out on the opportunity to pursue specialist careers, as, ironically, you get pipped to the post by people like me, from (comparatively) lowly universities doing non-traditional, practical degrees.
    Infosec and cyber security pay less than a few years ago and then it's only really for managers that the pay is good (50k plus).

    In my humble opinion, a lot of developer positions go vacant because companies want the moon on a stick and won't pay more than derisory salaries (too low to hire the people they need) to get it.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Infosec and cyber security pay less than a few years ago and then it's only really for managers that the pay is good (50k plus).
    Do you have personal experience with this?
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    (Original post by ahpadt)
    Do you have personal experience with this?
    Over the years had to turn down a few (two at the offer stage, one pre-interview) developer positions due to salary reasons. One was for Bloomberg (pre-interview, salary so bad I couldn't entertain the idea), the other two were for more scientific/engineering type companies.

    Got quite into computer security at one point (just found operating systems, root kits and viruses fascinating). Looked for work in this domain but just found the pay without a ton of certifications not worth the effort of relocating, changing jobs etc.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Over the years had to turn down a few (two at the offer stage, one pre-interview) developer positions due to salary reasons. One was for Bloomberg (pre-interview, salary so bad I couldn't entertain the idea), the other two were for more scientific/engineering type companies.

    Got quite into computer security at one point (just found operating systems, root kits and viruses fascinating). Looked for work in this domain but just found the pay without a ton of certifications not worth the effort of relocating, changing jobs etc.
    Certain cyber security firms seem to have pretty free-flowing cash...

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news...far-sighted-pm

    Mike explains: “Darktrace is probably the fastest growing cyber defence technology company in the world, growing 50 per cent month on month at present.
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    (Original post by ahpadt)
    Certain cyber security firms seem to have pretty free-flowing cash...

    http://www.businessweekly.co.uk/news...far-sighted-pm
    Pardon me but you just linked to an article that describes the investment portfolio of one of the UK's seemingly less scrupulous entrepreneurs (allegations that he sold vapourware to HP as well as artificially inflating the price the of Autonomy through dodgy accounting were rife) pushing a company with seemingly old ideas (the idea of combating malware based on classes of behaviour is nothing new). I fail to see how this makes infosec a viable career choice?
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Infosec and cyber security pay less than a few years ago and then it's only really for managers that the pay is good (50k plus).

    In my humble opinion, a lot of developer positions go vacant because companies want the moon on a stick and won't pay more than derisory salaries (too low to hire the people they need) to get it.
    I'm a senior analyst and I earn a lot more than that. Salaries are only increasing. I saw a statistic somewhere (can't find the source) that said that in the UK, the requirement for security personnel is 4 times higher than there are candidates to fill them. The best people are pushing 6 figure compensation packages in Central London, even at non-management/leadership levels.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Over the years had to turn down a few (two at the offer stage, one pre-interview) developer positions due to salary reasons. One was for Bloomberg (pre-interview, salary so bad I couldn't entertain the idea), the other two were for more scientific/engineering type companies.

    Got quite into computer security at one point (just found operating systems, root kits and viruses fascinating). Looked for work in this domain but just found the pay without a ton of certifications not worth the effort of relocating, changing jobs etc.
    I have my degree and zero certifications. You're just looking in the wrong place. Sure, I started on a fairly average graduate wage, but I've more than tripled that in 4 years because I'm good at what I do. Reputation and battle scars >> meaningless certifications.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Pardon me but you just linked to an article that describes the investment portfolio of one of the UK's seemingly less scrupulous entrepreneurs (allegations that he sold vapourware to HP as well as artificially inflating the price the of Autonomy through dodgy accounting were rife)
    Yes, exactly. Allogations. Innocent untill proven guilty.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    pushing a company with seemingly old ideas (the idea of combating malware based on classes of behaviour is nothing new). I fail to see how this makes infosec a viable career choice?
    Employing machine learning in assisting towards this process is however very new and they are to my knowledge without competitors in this area.

    Infosec / cyber security / whateveryouwannafrickincallit only seems like an industry which will explode in the future to me. There are only so many doctors we need, but the more stuff people put in the internet, the more critical this industry will become.
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    I'm a senior analyst and I earn a lot more than that. Salaries are only increasing. I saw a statistic somewhere (can't find the source) that said that in the UK, the requirement for security personnel is 4 times higher than there are candidates to fill them. The best people are pushing 6 figure compensation packages in Central London, even at non-management/leadership levels.



    I have my degree and zero certifications. You're just looking in the wrong place. Sure, I started on a fairly average graduate wage, but I've more than tripled that in 4 years because I'm good at what I do. Reputation and battle scars >> meaningless certifications.
    Market rate for a (non-manager) senior analyst is 40-50k (+10k in London) with certifications, so either you exaggerate or politics/connections allow you to screw more out of your employer than the market rate. Not unheard of: a friend once offered me 60k/year starting (outside if London) if I committed to his company, and when I was working in IB a mate of the manager was on 1k/day when he shouldn't have been paid more than a third of that.

    As for all the stuff about Mike Lynch being baseless allegations, I went there for an interview once and met some of his managers. I would say there was more than a grain of truth to the allegations if I had to step off the fence.

    Machine learning applied to anti malware being new hahahaha.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    As for all the stuff about Mike Lynch being baseless allegations, I went there for an interview once and met some of his managers. I would say there was more than a grain of truth to the allegations if I had to step off the fence.
    Based on your sour grapes, I take that you weren't offered a job.
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Comp Sci (and the people that study it) as a degree discipline pisses me off sometimes.

    It's a generalist degree that trains you in a thin veneer of everything, so that after 3 years, you know how an operating system works and how to do basic for loops in a piece of code. It does not qualify you to do anything. A couple of modules does not an expert make. What employers are looking for is a level of dedication and expertise from the people they're hiring. Software developers are highly in demand, but what are not in demand are apprentice software developers that take 4 weeks to write a 2 day piece of code, don't know how to interpret requirements and read a design document, and haven't got the first clue about delivering projects and working in the real world.

    It frustrates me that people, especially from more traditional universities, see: good honours degree + skills shortage = £££££££ This is not a true reflection of the real world at all. Similarly, it annoys me that the same people don't consider less traditional disciplines in IT. I personally think that you have to start specialising your skills in this field at an early age to progress. Yes, it closes doors, but if you pick sensibly, you can end up with essentially a job for life and rapid career progression. Programming is boring, in my personal opinion. As is working with DB's and web development. Some people find this interesting, so I'm not going to criticise people for wanting to get into these (relatively financially rewarding) fields. However, there is more out there than this, but you have to specialise and commit to it. Infosec/Cyber is an area that is grossly under-resourced at the moment. Companies are offering silly money for people with the right skills in this area, but yet so few people are even considering it because it doesn't fit with the cookie cutter Comp Sci graduate prospectus. Half the trouble here is that if you're smart and have good A-Levels and are into IT, you're funnelled in to the Comp Sci path, especially where top unis are concerned, yet these courses teach you very little in the way of practical employability, skills and certainly don't give you any specialism, which causes you then to miss out on the opportunity to pursue specialist careers, as, ironically, you get pipped to the post by people like me, from (comparatively) lowly universities doing non-traditional, practical degrees.
    So basically if your gonna do a compsci degree research properly and decide early where your gonna specialise, then get some experience with industry asap and dont expect a ton of ££££ at the start?
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Market rate for a (non-manager) senior analyst is 40-50k (+10k in London) with certifications, so either you exaggerate or politics/connections allow you to screw more out of your employer than the market rate. Not unheard of: a friend once offered me 60k/year starting (outside if London) if I committed to his company, and when I was working in IB a mate of the manager was on 1k/day when he shouldn't have been paid more than a third of that.
    Sorry... do you even work in the cyber security industry? Why would I exaggerate? I'm just presenting some facts to people to encourage them to consider this industry as a viable, well paid alternative to becoming a DBA or a bloody Java programmer.

    I'm being paid only a little over market rate, but that's because I negotiate hard and have a proven track record. I'm looking to negotiate a promotion this performance cycle as I'm taking on additional responsibility way beyond my pay grade. You work hard, you get well rewarded.

    (Original post by Seventeen)
    So basically if your gonna do a compsci degree research properly and decide early where your gonna specialise, then get some experience with industry asap and dont expect a ton of ££££ at the start?
    Entirely this.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Machine learning applied to anti malware being new hahahaha.
    I think you've misunderstood Darktrace.
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Market rate for a (non-manager) senior analyst is 40-50k (+10k in London) with certifications, so either you exaggerate or politics/connections allow you to screw more out of your employer than the market rate. Not unheard of: a friend once offered me 60k/year starting (outside if London) if I committed to his company, and when I was working in IB a mate of the manager was on 1k/day when he shouldn't have been paid more than a third of that.

    As for all the stuff about Mike Lynch being baseless allegations, I went there for an interview once and met some of his managers. I would say there was more than a grain of truth to the allegations if I had to step off the fence.

    Machine learning applied to anti malware being new hahahaha.
    Even a cursory look on jobserve would have told you that there are a ton of jobs in cyber security paying more than 50-60k, including at non-manager level.

    Not that I'd really expect you to know that since apparently your heart is set on medicine and therefore you've presumably given up on any notion of capitalism for a good 15 to 20 years and you can consider a move into the private sector.
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    (Original post by Potally_Tissed)
    Even a cursory look on jobserve would have told you that there are a ton of jobs in cyber security paying more than 50-60k, including at non-manager level.

    Not that I'd really expect you to know that since apparently your heart is set on medicine and therefore you've presumably given up on any notion of capitalism for a good 15 to 20 years and you can consider a move into the private sector.
    Except for one repeated advert, all the well paid jobs (>60k) are essentially management level with expectations of building stakeholder buy in. We can argue until we're blue in the face whether the title makes it a manager level job or not.

    Strangely enough, I have decided pursue something else so a positive spin you wouldn't actually expect from me. But you can take mine along with the continuum of opinions (some positive, some negative) if you like.

    Capitalism is a debate for another day 😉.
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    outsourcing brah
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    Sorry... do you even work in the cyber security industry? Why would I exaggerate? I'm just presenting some facts to people to encourage them to consider this industry as a viable, well paid alternative to becoming a DBA or a bloody Java programmer.

    I'm being paid only a little over market rate, but that's because I negotiate hard and have a proven track record. I'm looking to negotiate a promotion this performance cycle as I'm taking on additional responsibility way beyond my pay grade. You work hard, you get well rewarded.



    Entirely this.
    So it's gone from "I earn shed loads of money because I'm brilliant" to "I earn a little over the market rate by taking on more responsibility". 😉
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    I think you've misunderstood Darktrace.
    So give us an example of progression within infosec that shows how long it takes to get to each role and how much you would make. E.g:

    Junior (1yr) - 30k
    Senior (5yr) - 50k

    Etc
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    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    So it's gone from "I earn shed loads of money because I'm brilliant" to "I earn a little over the market rate by taking on more responsibility". 😉
    I was referring to my basic pay, which is £60k, but that doesn't include my bonus (17% base + 8% performance, cash + spot share awards) + RSUs (worth about £12k a year at the current market rate) . And no, you're misunderstanding me. I could quite happily sit and just do my job and still maintain my position and my performance-related elements as a senior analyst. What I'm doing is feathering the nest for a principal level promotion, hopefully in the next 6-18 months, which would see me heading up towards £90k basic + bonus and bens.

    (Original post by CharlieGEM)
    Except for one repeated advert, all the well paid jobs (>60k) are essentially management level with expectations of building stakeholder buy in. We can argue until we're blue in the face whether the title makes it a manager level job or not..
    False. The majority of my friends at my level of seniority in industry have zero budget/people management responsibility. In terms of "building stakeholder buy in", I really wouldn't call being your director's technical wingman in conversations with the grown-ups, a management responsibility.

    Also, I note from your lack of response to my question, that you don't work in Security. Hmm.

    (Original post by TrojanH)
    So give us an example of progression within infosec that shows how long it takes to get to each role and how much you would make. E.g:

    Junior (1yr) - 30k
    Senior (5yr) - 50k

    Etc
    I can't speak for the rest of industry, but I'll cover off my experience:

    Year 1: Junior analyst - £27k (typically £25k)
    Year 2: Analyst - £31k
    Year 3: Senior Analyst - £40k
    Year 4: Senior Analyst (for a much better company) £~87k (forecast) for this year.
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    (Original post by Mad Vlad)
    I was referring to my basic pay, which is £60k, but that doesn't include my bonus (17% base + 8% performance, cash + spot share awards) + RSUs (worth about £12k a year at the current market rate) . And no, you're misunderstanding me. I could quite happily sit and just do my job and still maintain my position and my performance-related elements as a senior analyst. What I'm doing is feathering the nest for a principal level promotion, hopefully in the next 6-18 months, which would see me heading up towards £90k basic + bonus and bens.


    False. The majority of my friends at my level of seniority in industry have zero budget/people management responsibility. In terms of "building stakeholder buy in", I really wouldn't call being your director's technical wingman in conversations with the grown-ups, a management responsibility.

    Also, I note from your lack of response to my question, that you don't work in Security. Hmm.



    I can't speak for the rest of industry, but I'll cover off my experience:

    Year 1: Junior analyst - £27k (typically £25k)
    Year 2: Analyst - £31k
    Year 3: Senior Analyst - £40k
    Year 4: Senior Analyst (for a much better company) £~87k (forecast) for this year.
    Awesome Vlad, thank you for this! So are you serious with your 4th-year prediction? Do you think it's possible to be making 100k in 5 years? In tech, with a comfortable 40hr job / not crazy hours of IB.

    As someone entering uni this year for CompSci what niches are really in demand and well-paid? This isn't for me to go into that area just for the money, I just want to probe around and see which areas interest me the most, that are also really well-paid
 
 
 
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