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    (Original post by Darien)
    I understand that but at what point do you change your mind? What about a two-year old child needing medical intervention to help them live through a bout of influenza?

    If you are injured in a car accident and lie bleeding by the roadside, should society take the attitude with you that "unless you can survive without medical intervention all is well?"

    These moral issues are rarely so simple.
    At birth, once they are born, except perhaps if it's as a direct consequence of the premature birth, they can start sucking money out of the NHS
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    Surprised that the population issue is barley mention. I pro-abortion, on the grounds that the foetus can not feel pain when it is aborted. I don't buy into the moral crap that "it's a person," because we are not people without feelings. If it can feel pain, I'll accept that it is now a person. However, the fact that we a disgustingly over -populated, and are only continuing to grow, is grounds enough to support abortion. If we keep adding to the numbers, we will eventually be extinct due to lack of living space.
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    (Original post by Darien)
    I think you need to realise that people against abortion believe that the unborn child is a person. They therefore believe that anyone wanting an abortion is not only wanting control over another person's body but wanting control over their very life.

    So they would ask the opposite question: what is lacking in your own lives to make you so desperate to control another's, especially that of a person who is too defenceless to control their own destiny?
    Amazing how the majority of posters on here claiming that abortion should be banned have presumably never been pregnant or had a child. Until about 22 weeks, I would not have considered my baby a person, capable of feeling pain or being defenceless. It was an embryo and then a foetus. It was only when I started to feel kicks that I could really think of it as a baby and a potential human, by which point the deadline for anything but a medical termination is almost passed.

    Someone wanting an abortion is accepting that they cannot care for the baby, and understanding that despite many people's flawed insistences that the baby can easily be put up for adoption, relinquishing the baby for adoption would actually be to surrender it into the care of the state, to be pushed around foster homes and face the difficulty of waiting to be adopted, and then being at that vital stage where attachments are being made when they are taken from the foster carer to the new adoptive parent.

    Relinquishing a baby for adoption is incredibly rare and there is no support network for it in the UK. You are treated exactly the same as someone having their baby taken away forcibly.
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    (Original post by madders94)
    Amazing how the majority of posters on here claiming that abortion should be banned have presumably never been pregnant or had a child. Until about 22 weeks, I would not have considered my baby a person, capable of feeling pain or being defenceless. It was an embryo and then a foetus. It was only when I started to feel kicks that I could really think of it as a baby and a potential human, by which point the deadline for anything but a medical termination is almost passed.
    This isn't about whether someone has been pregnant or not. This is a question about whether fetuses have intrinsic value and carry the right to life. A human being's value and rights are in no way contingent on how other people perceive him. Just because you didn't see your unborn child as a human being doesn't mean that he wasn't a human being.

    Distinguishing between an embryo and a fetus is as arbitrary as distinguishing between an infant and an adult. They're all stages of development of the organism in question - a human being. An infant is not an adult, but obviously both are human beings. In the same way, an embryo is not a fetus, but both are human beings - it's just that an embryo is a very young human being in the very first stages of its development.

    (Original post by madders94)
    Someone wanting an abortion is accepting that they cannot care for the baby, and understanding that despite many people's flawed insistences that the baby can easily be put up for adoption, relinquishing the baby for adoption would actually be to surrender it into the care of the state, to be pushed around foster homes and face the difficulty of waiting to be adopted, and then being at that vital stage where attachments are being made when they are taken from the foster carer to the new adoptive parent.
    This already assumes that the fetus is not a human being. We do not allow the killing of already born children simply because we can't take care of them or because we need to put them into orphanages.

    Children in orphanages do not commit mass suicide - that's because they don't want to die and they prefer to live. This implies that they'd rather be alive and in an orphanages than not be alive.

    (Original post by madders94)
    Relinquishing a baby for adoption is incredibly rare and there is no support network for it in the UK. You are treated exactly the same as someone having their baby taken away forcibly.
    A lot of work needs to be done here. That is true.
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    (Original post by Rosie786)
    There are so many couples who are childless as the women cannot conceive or gay people who would love to adopt children. Isn't it better to give birth to the child and then put him/her up for adoption if the child is unwanted?
    There are many more children in care homes waiting to be adopted than there are prospective adoptive parents.
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    No, for the simple reason that you can't tell people what to do. The same reason drug prohibition dosent work. If a guy in a barred locked cell being guarded by trained professionals inside of thick concrete walls, followed by locked gates, watch towers, dogs and even more concrete walls and more trained guards, can manage to get drugs into that cell because they wanted some, how futile is it trying to stop it?

    If you make it illegal the only thing that changes is where women will go for abortion. At present, it's tolerated and the procedure is undertaken by trained paid professionals in a safe environment. Make it illegal and I'll let the reader fathom where the women who don't want their pregnancy will be forced to go..
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    (Original post by zippity.doodah)
    of course not - foetuses aren't alive, there's no way you can defend a foetus's "life" over the welfare and safety (or even the autonomy) of the living human mother
    A point of pedantry - foetuses are very much alive, as were the egg and sperm that combined to produce them. I see your point, though, that they shouldn't be treated as human beings.
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    I personally don't think it should be illegal! I have mixed views though! I think an abortion is wrong if you purposely made the mistake and you can fund the child but I think an abortion is okay, say if you were raped or made a mistake (it not being a mistake for all the under 16 pregnant girls!!).
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    "I want to make abortion illegal, imposing my viewpoint and moral stance on millions of other people, but like they say to each his own."

    *facepalm*
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    Who are you to deny a person the right to live because you can't be bothered to look after the child?The fetus never had any choices to make, you chose to have sex so you have chose to have a baby.Its quite silly anyway to abort because if you have sex the you most subconsciously want to have a baby because thats the whole reason for sex in the first place.I have understood why stopping a person being born and murdering someone who has been born aren't at least equally as bad, from a mathematical/logical point of view they are -+=- an from a moral sense they are really you have robbed both people of life and really abortion is much worse because they hardly get the chance to live at all.I wonder what the results would be if you asked children of parents who were considering abortion whether they should have been born?-if the majority would say yes then abortion is definitely immoral and the yes answer is likely due to the no answer suggesting mental issues.I think the reason why murder and abortion are not classed the same is a selfish issue based on people putting their body/needs above another person's life which is shocking and the fact that if murder was legal there would be riots because people can be murdered but have already been born so can't be aborted.I would love to see a movie on Abortion where someone from the future takes the mother into the future where they get to see the person they are about to abort and are forced to tell them that face to face and I would love to see their reaction-I think the movie would get people to realise how nasty people who abort are its murder no question about it and probably the worst murder you can do because the person hasn't lived at all.
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    Who are you to deny a person the right to live because you can't be bothered to look after the child?The fetus never had any choices to make, you chose to have sex so you have chose to have a baby.Its quite silly anyway to abort because if you have sex the you most subconsciously want to have a baby because thats the whole reason for sex in the first place.I have understood why stopping a person being born and murdering someone who has been born aren't at least equally as bad, from a mathematical/logical point of view they are -+=- an from a moral sense they are really you have robbed both people of life and really abortion is much worse because they hardly get the chance to live at all.I wonder what the results would be if you asked children of parents who were considering abortion whether they should have been born?-if the majority would say yes then abortion is definitely immoral and the yes answer is likely due to the no answer suggesting mental issues.I think the reason why murder and abortion are not classed the same is a selfish issue based on people putting their body/needs above another person's life which is shocking and the fact that if murder was legal there would be riots because people can be murdered but have already been born so can't be aborted.I would love to see a movie on Abortion where someone from the future takes the mother into the future where they get to see the person they are about to abort and are forced to tell them that face to face and I would love to see their reaction-I think the movie would get people to realise how nasty people who abort are its murder no question about it and probably the worst murder you can do because the person hasn't lived at all.
    Bloody hell man. Punctuation, grammar and spellcheck, please use them.
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    (Original post by Darien)
    Most women getting illegal abortions were not poor: the poor could not afford an abortion.

    Hospitals were not being filled with women who needed medical treatment due to botched abortions. There were some botched abortions (and there still are: it's not a perfectly safe procedure even for the mother) but the number of abortions was a fraction of what it is now.

    That people will go to a different country to do something illegal in their own country is hardly a justification for making something legal. We don't change our paedophile laws, for example, just because some women are going to eastern Europe to have sex with under-age boys.


    Any society would be in dire trouble (see: Brazil) if they changed their laws just because the police force can't stick to the law! The way to fix police corruption is not to make an outlawed act legal, it is to sack and heavily penalise all criminal police.


    Actually, although the percentage of damage done on legal abortions is far smaller than the percentage of damage done on illegal abortions, because the number of abortions is so much higher when legalised, the number of women being injured by abortion is roughly the same in either case. You don't save (many) women from being injured, you just save children from being killed.
    You are confusing what back street abortionists did with what real doctors do to induce an abortion. Illegal abortionists would use anything from injecting poisonous chemicals to using unsterilised and inappropriate equipment to induce an abortion.

    Nice try rewriting history, which pro life site did you get your "facts" from?
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    Here's the problem with this entire debate. There is absolutely nobody on this forum who could convince anybody that they knew where we should draw the line on when this thing becomes a human person deserving of basic human rights. None of us actually know at what point this goes from being a legitimate medical procedure to murder. With this uncertainty in mind I think it would be prudent to act on the side of caution when it comes to when we allow abortions to take place. I wouldn't propose criminalising it in it's entirety for two reasons. Firstly I do think that in the very early stages of pregnancy we can be reasonably sure we're not dealing with a human life that is in any way comparable to developed human beings, and secondly there are always going to be the rare cases where a choice needs to be made between the life of the foetus and the life of the mother, and in those situations I think the person whose life is at risk should be able to make a choice.

    That said, we do allow abortions to happen far too late as it is in my opinion. A 24 week limit is too far, and we should most certainly be more cautious when it comes to where we draw the line here.
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    (Original post by minimarshmallow)
    I have interest in seeing if you can defend your position enough to change my mind. So far, you haven't been able to do that.

    (Original post by SmallTownGirl)
    Yeah, but a thread it supposed to be a discussion. We've all given you reasons why we believe you're wrong and you've just said 'agree to disagree' which isn't how it works when you want to take away someone's fundamental rights (and don't go on about rights of a foetus as until it's able to survive outside the mother's body it's not a human being).
    I gave my reasons and you gave yours. I have a right to hold opinions as much as you have yours. And I dont need to satisfy you for you to change your mind the same as you haven't been able to change mine. Have a nice day now.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    "I want to make abortion illegal, imposing my viewpoint and moral stance on millions of other people, but like they say to each his own."

    *facepalm*
    I didn't impose my viewpoint. I just shared it. However everyone is ganging up on me and imposing theirs on me instead. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Rosie786)
    I didn't impose my viewpoint. I just shared it. However everyone is ganging up on me and imposing theirs on me instead. :rolleyes:
    You made a thread where you asked a question about a divisive issue, and when people answer with their opinions and reasoning for it, it's 'ganging up on you?'


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    (Original post by beccagood95)
    It makes sense to me.
    It means that just because you've claimed to be something, doesn't mean you are.
    I could say that I'm a nice person, but actually I could be a horrible person that kills puppies, spits on the homeless and steal from innocent people.

    *I do not do those things*
    Doesn't mean you don't how can i believe you then?

    Being a misogynist is hating women. I do not... considering I'm a female myself. I have an opinion which differs to some because of course not everyone can have the same opinions. I didn't label them as something which they are not. Like I said before. ''NO NEED FOR PERSONAL ATTACKS
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    (Original post by Odd socks)
    You made a thread where you asked a question about a divisive issue, and when people answer with their opinions and reasoning for it, it's 'ganging up on you?'


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    Yes calling me misogynistic and stuff. Which is ganging up on me. Because I asked for opinions not personal attacks. No one accepted my reasoning for it either which is totally fine because they have a right to. Same as I have a right to not accept theirs.
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    (Original post by Rosie786)
    Yes calling me misogynistic and stuff. Which is ganging up on me. Because I asked for opinions not personal attacks. No one accepted my reasoning for it either which is totally fine because they have a right to. Same as I have a right to not accept theirs.
    Denying women the right to their bodies is pretty misogynistic

    But yeah, you don't have to listen to anyone's opinions, does make me wonder why you made the thread in the first place though


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    look at it this way. if someone told you that you had to donate your kidney to someone to save their life, nobody would look down on you, call you a murderer for saying you didn't want to do it- because it's your kidney, and your body.
    going through a pregnancy is a huge ordeal even if the kid gets adopted. takes a huge toll on the mother's body and can ruin her confidence, mental state, quality of life so she absolutely has the right to say no, i don't want to be pregnant. abortion's only legal up to the point where the fetus can survive anyway, which imo is when it 'counts' as a person.
    it's not just about the kid's life but the mother's too and i feel like some people forget that
 
 
 
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