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Bakery refuses to make "gay cake"; faces legal action Watch

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    (Original post by Reluire)
    So someone could request a cake with a big swastika on it saying 'Nazism rocks' and the bakery would be obliged to make it despite the obviously questionable sentiment?

    Don't get me wrong - I'm gay and I would be upset if I ordered my wedding cake with two grooms and it was turned away by a bakery. But something tells me the law protects private companies who do not want to 'act against their beliefs or consciences'.
    No Nazism isn't either race or sexuality or disability etc...

    you really should read what the law states in cases like this

    https://www.gov.uk/equality-act-2010-guidance

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/54
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    (Original post by Marcum)
    I suppose they would also refuse to make a wedding cake with figures of two grooms or brides hand in hand, as it goes against their beliefs. Is that not homophobic?
    Personally i don't think it's being homophobic. Is a christian bakery and in Northern Ireland where gay marriage has not been made legal. If this is the beliefs of the owners and they do not want their product to be seen as supporting something that is against their beliefs (which the region they live in is not even supporting yet). I think it would have been homophobic for them not to make then a 'normal' cake without the slogan or figures of two grooms on the basis that the customers were gay (if that makes sense)
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    So you would be OK with a sign outside of a shop that said 'No Blacks'?
    Not the same thing. It denies an independent business freedom of choice, that's no better than discrimination.
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    (Original post by Reluire)
    So someone could request a cake with a big swastika on it saying 'Nazism rocks' and the bakery would be obliged to make it despite the obviously questionable sentiment?

    Don't get me wrong - I'm gay and I would be upset if I ordered my wedding cake with two grooms and it was turned away by a bakery. But something tells me the law protects private companies who do not want to 'act against their beliefs or consciences'.
    It doesn't. It protects the individuals who might be discriminated against by private companies run by people with bigoted beliefs or consciences.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Race and sexuality

    Both messages can be considered political messges

    so again how would you feel if they had refused a cake with the term 'Black and proud'?
    The cake didn't say "gay and proud", did it? It bore a message supporting gay marriage. Marriage is an institution which in this country has been closely tied to Christianity for centuries, and in that respect race is not an apt comparison to make here. To many Christians, the idea of gay marriage simply does not make sense because it has a biological, rather than purely romantic, conceptual basis. To these Christians, gay marriage is not necessarily a bad thing insofar as it is a legal expression of a romantic relationship, but they would consider it a misnomer to call it marriage.

    So forgive me, but I do not think that the two are comparable at all.
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    (Original post by Dani California)
    Not the same thing. It denies an independent business freedom of choice, that's no better than discrimination.
    Yes it is

    If you can OK denying goods to gay people you can justify denying goods to black people or disabled people

    The law is there to prevent those who would discriminate from being able to actually discriminate.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    If that were the case, then I would not support the bakery. But you have absolutely no way of knowing that, and those aren't the circumstances here.
    "If the gay customer had merely asked for a cake, they would not have been refused. "

    You have no way of knowing that ^. Just like I have no way of knowing if they would have denied a wedding cake for a gay couple.
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    Hmm I'd lean towards siding with the bakery here, even if I don't share their views.

    Though I wonder, if someone requested a cake which had an anti-gay theme (say a cake with Leviticus 20:13 on it, which is simply a Biblical quote) , and the bakery refused as they supported gay rights/marriage, would they be charged with discrimination?
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    (Original post by Dani California)
    Not the same thing. It denies an independent business freedom of choice, that's no better than discrimination.
    Refusing serviced based on race is just as illegal as refusing service based on sexuality and both are made illegal by the same law.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Hmm I'd lean towards siding with the bakery here, even if I don't share their views.

    Though I wonder, if someone requested a cake which had an anti-gay theme (say a cake with Leviticus 20:13 on it, which is simply a Biblical quote) , and the bakery refused as they supported gay rights/marriage, would they be charged with discrimination?
    No, because denying discrimination isn't discrimination.
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    I'm in two minds over the whole thing (as I was with the B&B case). On the one hand I'm staunchly in favour of homosexual rights, but at the same time I'm also staunchly in favour of the principle of contractual freedom which is just as, if not more, important. On balance here I'd probably be tempted to side in favour of forcing the bakery to make the cake, since the reasons they've given for refusing to do so are solely discriminatory in their basis. However, that makes it very difficult to draw an actual line as to when we can force someone to provide goods/services against their will, and certainly I don't think that businesses should be forced to serve anyone who asks them to. So personally I'd prefer to go with an approach of only forcing people to serve particular customers where their reasons for not doing so are solely on the basis of discrimination because of their own opinions, and not for any business reason.
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    (Original post by ~ Aquamarine ~)
    Personally i don't think it's being homophobic. Is a christian bakery and in Northern Ireland where gay marriage has not been made legal. If this is the beliefs of the owners and they do not want their product to be seen as supporting something that is against their beliefs (which the region they live in is not even supporting yet). I think it would have been homophobic for them not to make then a 'normal' cake without the slogan or figures of two grooms on the basis that the customers were gay (if that makes sense)
    This argument has little to do with the continuos state supported suppression of a group of people, I say this in reference to the continued support of a lack of equal marriage in Northern Ireland.

    If your beliefs actively hurt another why should they not be legally and socially challenged?
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    (Original post by betaglucowhat)
    Refusing serviced based on race is just as illegal as refusing service based on sexuality and both are made illegal by the same law.
    Race plays no part part in this. As Christians, they do not support gay marriage. They ARE entitled to this view. If they had refused to serve a gay couple all together, that would be discrimination. Here, they are refusing associate with a cause that they believe is wrong. But of course, let's oppress that in the name of liberty. Logic.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Who get's to decide what is an acceptable message or not?
    The bakery. It can refuse to make any cake it deems to be offensive in any way.

    What it cannot do, is refuse to sell a cake to someone according to their gender, race, sexuality etc.

    (Original post by Carterj09)
    What if i opened a bakery, and said NO CHRISTIANS ALLOWED!
    There would be uproar.
    Except that's not at all equivalent to what's happening here. :rolleyes:

    The equivalent would be if you opened a bakery and served Christians, but refused to make a cake because it said "support the Vatican!".
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    The cake didn't say "gay and proud", did it? It bore a message supporting gay marriage. Marriage is an institution which in this country has been closely tied to Christianity for centuries, and in that respect race is not an apt comparison to make here. To many Christians, the idea of gay marriage simply does not make sense because it has a biological, rather than purely romantic, conceptual basis. To these Christians, gay marriage is not necessarily a bad thing insofar as it is a legal expression of a romantic relationship, but they would consider it a misnomer to call it marriage.

    So forgive me, but I do not think that the two are comparable at all.

    Then some Christians need to move with the times I'm afraid (My Parents are Christians and they have no issues with gay people getting married and it’s through them that I have my attitude for tolerance and acceptance so NO, not all Christians are bigoted homophobes).

    But I do as does the law (or maybe we don't know yet)

    It's really quite simple we live in a world where everyone should be able to expect the same level of service. if you fell you are unable to provide this service because you don't like blacks or you hate gays then the best thing to do is find a job where you can have this opinions with them impacting on others
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The bakery. It can refuse to make any cake it deems to be offensive in any way.
    They do not get to decide that because it's a pro Gay message that it is offensive

    Sorry the law is quite clear on this
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    (Original post by Dani California)
    Race plays no part part in this. As Christians, they do not support gay marriage. They ARE entitled to this view. If they had refused to serve a gay couple all together, that would be discrimination. Here, they are refusing associate with a cause that they believe is wrong. But of course, let's oppress that in the name of liberty. Logic.
    Deuteronomy 22:9, I acknowledge this is the Old Testament, condemns planting of different seeds next to each other. The New Testament, Matthew 5:17, effectively condones the Old Testament and yet I am doubtful the cake shop would have refused a farmer a cake with a picture of both wheat and barley planted next to each other.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    They do not get to decide that because it's a pro Gay message that it is offensive
    They should. It's their business, and they should get to decide whether or not they want to endorse a political message.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    The bakery. It can refuse to make any cake it deems to be offensive in any way.

    What it cannot do, is refuse to sell a cake to someone according to their gender, race, sexuality etc.



    Except that's not at all equivalent to what's happening here. :rolleyes:

    The equivalent would be if you opened a bakery and served Christians, but refused to make a cake because it said "support the Vatican!".
    Say concept, there would still be uproar
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    I think this is silly. Why can't they just go to another bakery instead of wasting their time fighting with the owner(s)? If I were refused something because I'm black, damn right I'd be pissed, but I'd tell them to go **** themselves and go to a DIFFERENT bakery, there's hundreds of them. I think a business has the right to refuse whoever and whatever, even though it's sad. I bet almost everyone would feel the same way if they owned a business. Imagine if someone came into your business asking for something that you didn't feel strongly about or believed? Pretty sure you'd refuse them. This is pointless news. Sucks for the couple, but they can just seriously go somewhere else where they'd be happy to take their order
 
 
 
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