Is Paying For Sex Immoral,Are Men That Do It Losers? Watch

Everglow
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#61
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#61
(Original post by cole-slaw)
You're effectively having sex with someone who really really really really doesn't want to have sex with you. Its basically rape. Personally I think kerbcrawlers should be prosecuted as such. Its not like its hard to pull women.
Are you speaking for all prostitutes when you say that? Some prostitutes are more than happy with their profession. Calling it rape doesn't make much sense when the prostitute has consented to having sex in return for a monetary payment. Rape only occurs where there is no freedom of choice.

As for your remark about the supposed ease of 'pulling' a woman, you've almost flipped right from defending women's rights to saying they're easy to get in bed. It's also logically flawed to suggest prosecution is necessary from a normative claim like yours that pulling women is easy so anyone who finds it a bit harder should be punished for resorting to a consensual exchange of goods; i.e. money for sex.

I'd also like to point out more generally that prostitution isn't solely an issue for women.
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cole-slaw
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Reluire)
Are you speaking for all prostitutes when you say that? Some prostitutes are more than happy with their profession. Calling it rape doesn't make much sense when the prostitute has consented to having sex in return for a monetary payment. Rape only occurs where there is no freedom of choice.
What is freedom of choice? Women who work as prostitutes are generally either in dire financial straits and work out of sheer desperation or are on drugs and are no more able to legally consent to sex than a ten year old.
You are extremely naive if you think otherwise.


As for your remark about the supposed ease of 'pulling' a woman, you've almost flipped right from defending women's rights to saying they're easy to get in bed.
I have no clue what your point is supposed to be here.



It's also logically flawed to suggest prosecution is necessary from a normative claim like yours that pulling women is easy so anyone who finds it a bit harder should be punished for resorting to a consensual exchange of goods; i.e. money for sex.
Its not really consensual though, that's the point. No-one freely choose to become a prostitute.
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Everglow
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#63
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#63
(Original post by cole-slaw)
What is freedom of choice? Women who work as prostitutes are generally either in dire financial straits and work out of sheer desperation or are on drugs and are no more able to legally consent to sex than a ten year old.
You are extremely naive if you think otherwise.

I have no clue what your point is supposed to be here.

Its not really consensual though, that's the point. No-one freely choose to become a prostitute.
Freedom of choice is the ability to do otherwise if you so wished to. It's a metaphysical freedom, not a political one as you're suggesting - therefore circumstance is irrelevant as far as the freedom is concerned. Therefore, if she chooses to engage in sex in return for money, in no way has she been raped. It might be immoral for someone to take advantage of the prostitute's circumstances, but ultimately the prostitute can physically decide to do otherwise. If they're drugged up, that's a whole other issue, similar to the Ched Evans case.

The point is it seems strange to defend women's rights but then to go on and call them easy. You undermine your argument by doing that.

You can't make a sweeping judgment like that because there may be some that freely choose to become prostitutes for whatever reason. Not everyone is brought up in surroundings that discourage it. Some would even say it's easy money. It might not seem consensual, but ultimately it is.
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masterridley
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#64
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#64
(Original post by cole-slaw)
What is freedom of choice? Women who work as prostitutes are generally either in dire financial straits and work out of sheer desperation or are on drugs and are no more able to legally consent to sex than a ten year old.
You are extremely naive if you think otherwise.



I have no clue what your point is supposed to be here.




Its not really consensual though, that's the point. No-one freely choose to become a prostitute.
Mate you have no idea and you live in the UK lol. Do look it up. I don't have any experience with these types of things but I have researched it (really, I'm not making an innuendo here!) and there are LOTS of escorts who love their jobs and do it for the lifestyle/money/fun. If you want proof just read their stories in their own forums

Notice the distinction between escorts and street prostitutes. It's a whole different story and I agree it is sad that prostitutes are "forced" to work the streets out of necessity. I use quotes because I can't honestly say they're forced when they can also get dreary jobs like the rest of us or get on benefits or whatever. It also devalues the plight of those prostitutes who are really forced due to human trafficking.
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cole-slaw
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#65
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#65
(Original post by Reluire)
Freedom of choice is the ability to do otherwise if you so wished to. It's a metaphysical freedom, not a political one as you're suggesting - therefore circumstance is irrelevant as far as the freedom is concerned. Therefore, if she chooses to engage in sex in return for money, in no way has she been raped. It might be immoral for someone to take advantage of the prostitute's circumstances, but ultimately the prostitute can physically decide to do otherwise. If they're drugged up, that's a whole other issue, similar to the Ched Evans case.
and you think the majority of john's religiously check these things? :rolleyes:

The nature of the freedom of choice is context driven. If someone holds a gun to your head and tell you to sleep with them, you don't really have the choice not to do it. If a socio-economic system means that a woman has to have sex with people so that her kids have food, she doesn't have the choice not to do it either.

Just because YOU can't see the gun, doesn't mean it isn't there.


The point is it seems strange to defend women's rights but then to go on and call them easy. You undermine your argument by doing that.
You're the one throwing around words like "easy" and making obviously misogynistic and judgemental comments about women.

You've actually accidentally exposed your own underlying level of sexism here.



You can't make a sweeping judgment like that because there may be some that freely choose to become prostitutes for whatever reason. Not everyone is brought up in surroundings that discourage it. Some would even say it's easy money. It might not seem consensual, but ultimately it is.
There may be, but I've never actually heard of one.
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unprinted
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#66
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#66
(Original post by cole-slaw)
You're effectively having sex with someone who really really really really doesn't want to have sex with you. Its basically rape.
Wrong. You'd be having sex with someone who didn't offer to have sex with you for free. There's a big difference.

Its not like its hard to pull women.
This is "I can pull (sic), therefore you must be able to". How do you do it?

(Original post by cole-slaw)
What is freedom of choice? Women who work as prostitutes are generally either in dire financial straits and work out of sheer desperation or are on drugs and are no more able to legally consent to sex than a ten year old.
And the evidence for that is...?

For the vast majority It's a choice. When I first did it, I could go 'do you want fries with that?' for ten hours or for the same amount of money help someone have an orgasm for in less than a tenth the time. It was an easy choice to make. Your choice may be different, but that doesn't make either of them wrong.

No-one freely choose to become a prostitute.
If true, no-one freely chooses to become a cleaner, a picker, or a host of other jobs I wouldn't want to do.

You're the one throwing around words like "easy" and making obviously misogynistic and judgemental comments about women.
Because you're the one saying 'pull', rather than, oh, 'have a relationship with'.

There may be, but I've never actually heard of one.
There are. Roughly whereabouts are you located?
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The Juan
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#67
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#67
(Original post by matthewduncan)
What is your stance on this?
Is it immoral to pay for sex?
ladies get involved in this debate as well
No there is absolutely nothing wrong with paying for sex
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matthewduncan
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#68
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#68
coleslaw is right though.
most escorts in this country are forced by romanian,bulgarian and other easter european sex gangs.
Its A very lucrative business.
I dunno about you but im not having sex with a bird that dont want to.
No,no,no.
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The Juan
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#69
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#69
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
Clearly a weaker position than were they completely rational, in the opinion of someone who values rationality above all else,* for sure

Deflective nit-picking aside, my point remains: still a great story bro :rolleyes:

You fail to full appreciate the layers of sentimentality involved (demonstrative of binary thinking). Some layers are peeled back, others remain in place indefinitely. Capeesh?

Ultimate positions may be determined by both e.g. value derived logic. For example: I might reasonably consider that the fundamental raison d’etre of my offspring is to have a happy existence, contribute meaningfully to humanity, and to give me happy and healthy grandchildren. These things are put in jeopardy in a number of perfectly logical senses by them entering the sex industry, some of which are highly predicated on highly subjective values, others less so; whatever the case, they may be deemed perfectly logical in essence/when deconstructed, but yet also have impulsive/instinctive/normative origins/undertones

The reasons should be fairly self explanatory. I’m not going to list them in detail here, I have mentioned the differences between the sexes in the sexual domain on TSR many times in the past (a quick search of my post history should prove informative). I don’t really wish to get sucked into a sideshow debate anyway, there are perfectly legit reasons e.g. the ones I originally gave, as to why it’s undesirable/immoral for someone of either gender

Think about probability e.g. of harm, and perhaps also look into female psychology vs. sexuality for some insights

Try telling that to a sex worker

Depends on the particular relationship, but yes they are largely comparatively false/empty (when compared with more normal relations, if not when compared with prostitution)

Ah right, thought perhaps the word experience was merely demonstrative of you being a slightly autistic poster, my bad

I wouldn’t know about this, never heard of it before, sounds tragic

You’re being facetious again, and it’s not really scoring you any points, sorry. Most things are fine in moderation, this is a tautology

Indeed so (see original post for core factors). Thank you, and good night
I think it is time to legalise prostitution in the UK. We can then regulate to ensure it is legitimate and the women have rights. I think this is the next step In order for our country to move forward.
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SophieSmall
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#70
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#70
(Original post by trustmeimlying1)
dont tease:mad:
id be crazy enough to be up for something like that
who said i wouldn't?
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The Juan
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Foo.mp3)
As far as I'm aware some types of prostitution are already legal, so I think perhaps you mean legalise brothels(?) I have mixed feelings about such a proposition. I can see the potential* positive welfare implications, but equally I can see the normative and societal ones, which are not pretty

* I say 'potential' above because actually there is the demonstrated potential for things to get even worse if you legalise the industry
It will exist with or without legalisation so is it better to be subject to regulation or not?
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trustmeimlying1
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#72
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#72
(Original post by SophieSmall)
who said i wouldn't?
grand il hold your word to it haha

reminds me need to start applying for that ****
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e aí rapaz
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#73
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The problem with this argument that a person selling their body is no different to somebody else working a job they don't like but put up with for the money (cleaners, fast food services, etc), is that this thread is about our opinions on the morality of it! Somewhere, as a society, we draw the line at what is a morally acceptable means that we allow people to go through in order to get by. For me, serving fast food is one side of that line and selling sex is the other.
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iama
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#74
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#74
I don't think it's immoral, but I don't have a big worded opinion on it either. This is such an instance where people doing what they want doesn't bother me

Posted from TSR Mobile
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SophieSmall
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#75
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#75
(Original post by trustmeimlying1)
grand il hold your word to it haha

reminds me need to start applying for that ****
ahah you'll be grand
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Jibola240
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#76
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(Original post by e aí rapaz)
The problem with this argument that a person selling their body is no different to somebody else working a job they don't like but put up with for the money (cleaners, fast food services, etc), is that this thread is about our opinions on the morality of it! Somewhere, as a society, we draw the line at what is a morally acceptable means that we allow people to go through in order to get by. For me, serving fast food is one side of that line and selling sex is the other.
It's funny, because to me, they are pretty much the same thing. They're both for the most part, low skilled jobs, that few people aspire to become for the long term, often taken up purely for financial reasons(though on both sides there are people who enjoy the job for other reasons). The reason why many have an issue with the latter(excluding those who only have an issue due to possible trafficking and exploitation) is because of this view of sex so many people have. It's meant to be special, intimate, with someone you care about etc. Without those things, sex is demeaning, empty, degrading. It's the same reason why so many people have an issue with one night stands, pornography etc. But nobody bats an eyelid at the individual working as a cleaner or in fast-food due to desperate circumstances regarding finance.

OP: Obviously I don't think paid sex is in itself immoral. Not at all. Nor do I think men who engage in it are sad. But, although I disagree, I get that for some sex is something intimate, not something to be used for quick pleasure, thus may view paid sex as immoral.
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trustmeimlying1
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#77
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#77

have a good day kid

see yeh in june:cool:
(Original post by SophieSmall)
ahah you'll be grand
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unprinted
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#78
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#78
(Original post by matthewduncan)
most escorts in this country are forced by romanian,bulgarian and other easter european sex gangs.
And the evidence for that is...?

Again, see the Guardian's report on Operation Pentameter 2: "The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

I dunno about you but im not having sex with a bird that dont want to.
Very admirable, but don't assume that someone you pay doesn't want to.
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e aí rapaz
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#79
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#79
(Original post by Jibola240)
It's funny, because to me, they are pretty much the same thing. They're both for the most part, low skilled jobs, that few people aspire to become for the long term, often taken up purely for financial reasons(though on both sides there are people who enjoy the job for other reasons). The reason why many have an issue with the latter(excluding those who only have an issue due to possible trafficking and exploitation) is because of this view of sex so many people have. It's meant to be special, intimate, with someone you care about etc. Without those things, sex is demeaning, empty, degrading. It's the same reason why so many people have an issue with one night stands, pornography etc. But nobody bats an eyelid at the individual working as a cleaner or in fast-food due to desperate circumstances regarding finance.
Well, that's the variety of opinion for you. There is, however, a definite grey area between the idea that people selling their body for sex is a perfectly acceptable, happy and informed choice, and thinking that sex is always some magical, special union though.
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matthewduncan
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#80
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#80
(Original post by unprinted)
And the evidence for that is...?

Again, see the Guardian's report on Operation Pentameter 2: "The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."



Very admirable, but don't assume that someone you pay doesn't want to.
I know a lot of pimps socially and through business.
And just because thry failed to find any evidence does not mean it doesnt go on.
Do you expect these girls to grass and risk their lives ?
And i would take that guardian article with a pinch of salt because off the top of my head i can think of at least 10 cases i have read over the past couple of months.

http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/new...ars/?ref=gprec

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-28123869

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/upd...titution-gang/
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