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'Forget Ukip: why the Green Party could decide the election' watch

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    (Original post by zjs)
    It's encapsulated quite nicely in the Myleene Klass incident. She came out with a slew of ridiculous claims about homes in London and it was fairly obvious that "people" and "little old ladies" meant her and the equally rich
    So Myleene Klass opposed a Labour Party policy you agree with, and that somehow is evidence of... what?

    You've essentially demonstrated what a disingenuous person you are; your entire objection to the Labour Party is "encapsulated" by the kind of tactical, horse-race, perception-obsessed approach that is so beloved of the right-wing press.

    Basically, all puff and no substance.

    That may well be, but people are certainly saying it.
    I couldn't really care less what union-bashing Green hypocrites are saying. They're the kind of people who can afford another 5 years of Tory government, hence they're very blase about whether the bedroom tax is repealed next year or not.

    they still seem wedded to the idea of wanting to go along with the Conservative austerity experiment
    It's nice to know that you believe the UK could afford to run a 150 billion pound a year deficit indefinitely. No wonder the Greens have so little credibility

    Also very revealing that you personally don't feel any urgency to get the Tories out of government; that shows me how disconnected you are from actual working people
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    (Original post by zjs)
    You're the only one with an attitude in the thread thus far
    The distinction between us is that I'm passionate about making a real difference to the lives of working people. It therefore provokes my ire when I encounter a dilettante who casually claims to stand for working people when they don't care about the situation of disabled people who are suffering under the bedroom tax, or reversing NHS privatisation, or repealing the trade union restrictions and employment tribunal fees.

    Your comments demonstrate how your claim to want to support socialist Labour is a pose.

    When it comes down to it, you can't come up with anything more substantive than Ed Miliband should have disagreed with Klass (oh wait, he did... sorry, what was your objection?) and that Labour's refusal to run a 150 billion pound deficit indefinitely is insufficiently socialist. It would appear you are confused about what socialist entails.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    So Myleene Klass opposed a Labour Party policy you agree with, and that somehow is evidence of... what?

    You've essentially demonstrated what a disingenuous person you are; your entire objection to the Labour Party is "encapsulated" by the kind of tactical, horse-race, perception-obsessed approach that is so beloved of the right-wing press.

    Basically, all puff and no substance.
    My entire objection? No.

    I don't "object" to the Labour Party, only to their centrist pandering.

    Evidence of the party elite not following through with the strength of their convictions.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    I couldn't really care less what union-bashing Green hypocrites are saying. They're the kind of people who can afford another 5 years of Tory government, hence they're very blase about whether the bedroom tax is repealed next year or not.
    One minority run council turning on the unions doesn't equal the views of every party supporter.

    Conjecture, once again.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    It's nice to know that you believe the UK could afford to run a 150 billion pound a year deficit indefinitely. No wonder the Greens have so little credibility

    Also very revealing that you personally don't feel any urgency to get the Tories out of government; that shows me how disconnected you are from actual working people
    No, that wasn't what I said.

    Strong assumption.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    The distinction between us is that I'm passionate about making a real difference to the lives of working people. It therefore provokes my ire when I encounter a dilettante who casually claims to stand for working people when they don't care about the situation of disabled people who are suffering under the bedroom tax, or reversing NHS privatisation, or repealing the trade union restrictions and employment tribunal fees.

    Your comments demonstrate how your claim to want to support socialist Labour is a pose.

    When it comes down to it, you can't come up with anything more substantive than Ed Miliband should have disagreed with Klass (oh wait, he did... sorry, what was your objection?) and that Labour's refusal to run a 150 billion pound deficit indefinitely is insufficiently socialist. It would appear you are confused about what socialist entails.
    This is a forum for debate, not consensus. If you disagree with something, logic and reasoned arguments are the order of the day. The first paragraph is a mish-mash of your own assumptions about what I do or don't believe.

    No, that was but one example. I already told you what my objection was.

    The fact is, Labour is a centrist party. You can fume and sling accusations at me all you want, but it isn't the socialist party that it should be and once was. Hopefully, this manifesto is the start of moving towards that.
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    (Original post by zjs)
    Evidence of the party elite not following through with the strength of their convictions.
    You seem to be confused (or disingenuous). You haven't really explained what Mylene Klass disagreeing with Ed Miliband on the mansion tax is supposed to signify; do you agree with the mansion tax or not?

    Or is the extent of your disagreement that you believe Ed Miliband should have, in your mind, performed better in responding? That would indicate;

    (1) That you've never been on live TV and are unaware of how easy it is to come up with a catchy one-liner after the fact

    (2) That if the first objection that comes to mind to criticise the Labour Party is Ed Miliband's alleged failure to be as good as you think you would have been on live TV, then your position really is rather superficial and disconnected from substantive policy questions

    One minority run council
    So you're claiming the other parties forced the Greens to attack the public sector workers of Brighton?

    No, that wasn't what I said.
    That's precisely what you said. You said that you object to Labour only saying they will cut less fast or differently. That clearly indicates that you don't believe in addressing the massive fiscal deficit (or the austerity agenda, as you call it).

    That is a clear commitment to keeping spending at levels commensurate with a 150 billion pound a year deficit, which you believe is entirely sustainable.

    With views like that, I don't think it's entirely fair that people call Greens "Tories on bikes", though given their union bashing it does have some resonance.
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    (Original post by zjs)
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    I suppose I shouldn't be too put out when Green party members view everything through the lens of attacking Labour, no matter how much this benefits the Tories and no matter how little it's based on actual policy differences.

    Pretty much every vote the Greens take has to come from Labour, and their only serious political strategy can be one of lopping off and absorbing part of Labour.

    It reminds me of after the first 100 days of the Greens in office in Brighton, the council leader said, "if we get this right, it will make things very difficult for Labour in this city in 2015". Not if we get this right, it will make things better for residents, or businesses, or the environment.

    Despite this being a time of swingeing Tory cuts, slashing and burning the public sector, the Greens have never been more vociferous in attacking Labour. It shows us that their entire political enterprise is based on self-advancement, with little care for the environment or workers. I think the substance, so-called, underlying that enterprise is demonstrated by the superficiality of your criticisms.

    But I have a lot of faith in the people of Brighton and Hove; after seeing the backbiting and political infighting, the Greens providing political cover to the Tories, rubbish piling up in the streets, they've had enough
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    (Original post by young_guns)
    You seem to be confused (or disingenuous). You haven't really explained what Mylene Klass disagreeing with Ed Miliband on the mansion tax is supposed to signify; do you agree with the mansion tax or not?

    Or is the extent of your disagreement that you believe Ed Miliband should have, in your mind, performed better in responding? That would indicate;

    (1) That you've never been on live TV and are unaware of how easy it is to come up with a catchy one-liner after the fact

    (2) That if the first objection that comes to mind to criticise the Labour Party is Ed Miliband's alleged failure to be as good as you think you would have been on live TV, then your position really is rather superficial and disconnected from substantive policy questions
    The point I was making is that it's a snapshot of Labour's failure to really press on issues. Rather than fully commit to explaining the alternative on issues, they seem to stop short in the centre ground. I agree with the mansion tax, of course.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    So you're claiming the other parties forced the Greens to attack the public sector workers of Brighton?
    I'm not really sure how you reached that conclusion, but no.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    That's precisely what you said. You said that you object to Labour only saying they will cut less fast or differently. That clearly indicates that you don't believe in addressing the massive fiscal deficit (or the austerity agenda, as you call it).
    There have been many, many, economic studies on the ineffectiveness of pursuing austerity to try and slash a fiscal deficit.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    That is a clear commitment to keeping spending at levels commensurate with a 150 billion pound a year deficit, which you believe is entirely sustainable.
    There are alternate ways to stimulate the economy.

    (Original post by young_guns)
    With views like that, I don't think it's entirely fair that people call Greens "Tories on bikes", though given their union bashing it does have some resonance.
    This repeated reference to 'union bashing' is interesting. The Greens don't have the strength of links that Labour do, but they have strong links nonetheless. The fact that the council in Brighton may have turned on them there doesn't indicate a nationwide Green 'union bashing' agenda.


    (Original post by young_guns)
    I suppose I shouldn't be too put out when Green party members view everything through the lens of attacking Labour, no matter how much this benefits the Tories and no matter how little it's based on actual policy differences.

    Pretty much every vote the Greens take has to come from Labour, and their only serious political strategy can be one of lopping off and absorbing part of Labour.

    It reminds me of after the first 100 days of the Greens in office in Brighton, the council leader said, "if we get this right, it will make things very difficult for Labour in this city in 2015". Not if we get this right, it will make things better for residents, or businesses, or the environment.

    Despite this being a time of swingeing Tory cuts, slashing and burning the public sector, the Greens have never been more vociferous in attacking Labour. It shows us that their entire political enterprise is based on self-advancement, with little care for the environment or workers. I think the substance, so-called, underlying that enterprise is demonstrated by the superficiality of your criticisms.

    But I have a lot of faith in the people of Brighton and Hove; after seeing the backbiting and political infighting, the Greens providing political cover to the Tories, rubbish piling up in the streets, they've had enough
    I don't view everything through a lens of attacking Labour, but rather a lens of attacking neoliberal economic theory; a narrative of 'necessary' austerity measures as the only solution, when this is clearly not the case.

    I disagree with Natalie Bennett's desire to fight in every seat that the Greens may have influence in. Rather, I would follow Caroline Lucas' approach (and an approach favoured by a lot of the party), to work with genuinely left and reformist candidates in constituencies where doing so would ensure they got in and helped promote a reformist agenda. I'm non-partisan if someone is promoting a proper social democratic agenda, of which they are many Labour MPs. I think the problem is that the Green executive want to be an alternative to the 'main' parties and there economic positioning and feel any alliance with Labour undermines that.

    Bear in mind, though, that I'm aligned to the Green Left. This is the 'socialist undercurrent' (as it's apparently known) within the party that strongly voted against implementing the cuts and whose founder quit the party when the Greens voted to agree with the council in Brighton. I'm interested in politics of change; of putting forward unequivocal resistance to austerity measures and fighting the immigration narrative. I believe in the Green agenda in terms of conservationism and fighting climate change, but put social justice before and above this. As I've said before, I'd rather see a Labour returning to its socialist roots. I don't agree that the best way to do that is trying to change it from within, but rather forcing it to tack left as a result of the desire of the electorate.
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    (Original post by young_guns)
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    By the way, the article you quote on Brighton as if it's fact - http://www.newstatesman.com/politics...chaotic-greens - is one of the most ridiculously biased things I've seen, written by a Labour councillor on the council in Brighton & Hove

    The comments section sum it up quite well, with plenty of evidence of the Greens being blocked by Labour in Brighton.

    One of my biggest problems with some Labour supporters (and the party itself) is that everything is framed as 'we're the least worst' or 'otherwise it's the Conservatives', when their policy just isn't as distinct from the dreaded Tories as they'd like it to be. They can claim to be the only party of the working class all they want, but they're losing working class supporters in droves. Partly, that's due to the politics of spin. To link it back to the article, it's not focused on what Labour would have done; preferring to make emotive statements with inflated figures.
 
 
 
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