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Anybody out there voting Lib Dems? watch

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    (Original post by Gott)
    I'm given to believe that the Tories and Labour just vie for the centre ground and use it to implement their economic policy. This is why I might seriously consider voting UKIP to pressure the Tories into legislating (perhaps more importantly not legislating like conservatives), even though this would be disastrous in the short term. Would you agree that the essence of real conservatism is libertarian?
    To me the essence of conservatism is conservatism , e.g conserving existing power structures and maintaining the status quote of established groups.

    libertarianism therfore, which aims for the smallest of possible States and for the smallest of involvement in the personal affairs of individuals would be quite incompatible with 'real' conservatism.

    Nigel Farage is not a libertarian. Ukip is not a libertarian party, they are a protest party with a few unpleasant wealthy donors.

    Gary Johnson and the U.S. libertarian party are libertarians.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    To me the essence of conservatism is conservatism , e.g conserving existing power structures and maintaining the status quote of established groups.

    libertarianism therfore, which aims for the smallest of possible States and for the smallest of involvement in the personal affairs of individuals would be quite incompatible with 'real' conservatism.

    Nigel Farage is not a libertarian. Ukip is not a libertarian party, they are a protest party with a few unpleasant wealthy donors.

    Gary Johnson and the U.S. libertarian party are libertarians.
    I'm sure they don't believe in maintaining labour created institutions necessarily, and perhaps don't show signs of returning things which Tories of yesteryear would have endorsed for ideological reasons. What do you mean by a protest party? Farrage is clearly a 1950s Tory, though he may seem reactionary for party political reasons
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    (Original post by Gott)
    I'm sure they don't believe in maintaining labour created institutions necessarily,

    Such as, Farage got backlash from his party for hinting at NHS privatisation,


    and perhaps don't show signs of returning things which Tories of yesteryear would have endorsed for ideological reasons.
    like what?

    What do you mean by a protest party? Farrage is clearly a 1950s Tory, though he may seem reactionary for party political reasons
    He is in protest with the perceived direction the tories have taken. They are a protest oarty whose core aim, as farage is quite candid in admitting is leaving the EU. They are made up mainly of disaffected non voters dissatisfied with politics in General, (their popularity also coincidentally comes after a recession).
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    [QUOTE=Davij038;53326405]Such as, Farage got backlash from his party for hinting at NHS privatisation [QUOTE/]

    Interesting

    I don't know what to think about them now. My stance on the NHS is one of disgust, it is an extremely lethal socialist relic which is clearly a misfit in Europe, the continental model of the health system as it were using private hospitals which claim the charge back from the tax payer is ubiquitous is Europe and obviously much less dangerous
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    [QUOTE=Gott;53326555]
    (Original post by Davij038)
    Such as, Farage got backlash from his party for hinting at NHS privatisation [QUOTE/]

    Interesting

    I don't know what to think about them now. My stance on the NHS is one of disgust, it is an extremely lethal socialist relic which is clearly a misfit in Europe, the continental model of the health system as it were using private hospitals which claim the charge back from the tax payer is ubiquitous is Europe and obviously much less dangerous
    I prefer the European system also. As it stands though, the NHS is the second amendment of the UK, no party would campaign against it.

    Im not that overly bothered by the NHS though, it's going to have to be radically changed at some point regardless.
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    [QUOTE=Davij038;53326655]
    (Original post by Gott)

    I prefer the European system also. As it stands though, the NHS is the second amendment of the UK, no party would campaign against it.

    Im not that overly bothered by the NHS though, it's going to have to be radically changed at some point regardless.
    It is a depressing thought how many people will die in the next century because of this party political cowardice and hypocrisy
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    [QUOTE=Gott;53326763]
    (Original post by Davij038)

    It is a depressing thought how many people will die in the next century because of this party political cowardice and hypocrisy
    I think it was Churchill who said that democracy was the best of a load of bad ideas. This is kinda why.

    saying that though, I honestly prefer the NHS to the U.S. system.
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    [QUOTE=Davij038;53326871]
    (Original post by Gott)

    I think it was Churchill who said that democracy was the best of a load of bad ideas. This is kinda why.

    saying that though, I honestly prefer the NHS to the U.S. system.
    Contrary to what labour supporters would have me believe I would support the NHS if it resulted in fewer deaths and less abject misery, than the alternative so I cannot begin to understand how Labour Party supporters can argue the case of something akin in morality to genocide in that it is government sponsored death
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    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    They're directly showing the system doesn't work. That a party can be elected not based on any obligation to enact policy but because of waffle, PR, and idealogical branding. I know individual MPs might not apply to this, but they haven't defected. :dontknow:


    Every vote for LDems now is a vote against our voting system. A vote for them is someone putting their hands up and saying 'I don't know how this all works', or 'I want a two party system'. I know they'll linger around on 30ish seats most likely, but quite frankly if the LDems disbanded it would restore my faith in the right to vote. Right now I can't help but feel they're factually symbolic of why the political theatre is a tragedy.


    That's why I feel that people voting for them are complacent in that mockery of any vestige of democracy that remains in England, and that we'd be better off without their input. I know that sounds heartless but quite frankly I'm angry that people are still voting for MPs that basically metaphorically urinated on them for the past 4 years; and I didn't even vote for them.
    No offense but I don't think you understand what a coalition is, you seem to think that because The Tories and Lib Dems are in coalition that somehow means that they have similar levels of power, that is nowhere near the truth. All it means is that in exchange for The Tories being able to take power (something that would have happened anyway) The Tories agree to some compromises (small ones), like not trying to push bill X through (likely small ones Tories didn't care about anyway) or for them to seriously consider some of their own policies (AV being the big one). Lib Dems have 9% of the House of Commons, despite Clegg being deputy PM (a worthless title by all accounts) Labour have far more power to stop the Tories passing a law than Lib Dems do because they have far more seats and so more votes on whether a bill should be passed.

    The 2010 general election campaign had basically bankrupted Labour whilst the Tories were rich, if the Lib Dems had said no to The Tories then the Tories would easily have out-muscled Labour in the re-election and won, we would have got the same outcome except The Tories would have far more seats than the public initially voted for and the Tories would have been able to pass their laws far more easily. Clegg isn't an idiot, I'm sure he knew when he made a deal with the devil that he was committing political suicide but he really had no other choice, it was form a coalition or bankrupt Labour and the Lib Dems and let The Tories have far more power than they were voted in for in 2010.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Lib Dems want proportional representation, those who want them to have a majority are contradicting themselves.
    Huh? Proportional representation is a system whereby the percentage of seats a party gets is closely related to the percentage of votes a party gets. So for example if Labour got 35% of the votes and there were 200 seats you would expect them to get 70 seats (obviously since seats are integers and often the 'true' seat allocation would be a decimal you have to round, and the different ways we can round depends on the voting method used and it all gets a bit maths-y). Anyway this method still favours a majority, if a party got 60% of the vote then they would get 60% of seats, and hence would have a majority.

    The difference between this and the current method is that we can have the situation with our current system where the party with the most votes doesn't win the most seats (I believe this has happened in the past) for example if 0 people voted for The Tories in 324 electoral areas and everyone in those areas voted Labour but then in the other 326 electoral areas The Tories won every seat by one vote over Labour then the Tories would have a majority, despite Labour having far more votes, which is why Proportional Representation is wanted by many people. It also has the benefit of helping smaller parties, for example the Green Party has little chance of having a voice in parliament under our current system, but if we used Proportional Representation then if the Greens got 1% of the vote then they'd win about 6 seats.
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    No. I wont be voting for anyone. Whoever you vote for won't invoke radical change that will have a massive influence on your life anyway because all they're interested in is serving themselves and ensuring they get elected again. Behind the media mask they're all best friends and play the game of politics to see who gets to sit in the big boys chair. The house of cards is a perfect description because even though they may be different suits at the end of the day they're still a card. It doesn't matter who you vote for. All voting does is give your consent for them to continue this entire act. I know before the election they'll make all these promises to win the votes of the naive and easily led and then once the result is done you'll just get an increase in taxes, told we need to make more cuts whilst the rich get tax reliefs, get told we need to do more to save the planet by purchasing energy saving lightbulbs whilst airlines continuously pollute the air en masse, statistics will be manipulated again to show unemployment has gone down and if we are really lucky we might get our bins collected a day earlier. What a revolutionary and life changing policy that'll be. I'm sure the poor starving to death on the streets of London will be over the moon to know that my revolutionary recycling schedule.
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    (Original post by justanotherposter)
    No offense but I don't think you understand what a coalition is, you seem to think that because The Tories and Lib Dems are in coalition that somehow means that they have similar levels of power, that is nowhere near the truth. All it means is that in exchange for The Tories being able to take power (something that would have happened anyway) The Tories agree to some compromises (small ones), like not trying to push bill X through (likely small ones Tories didn't care about anyway) or for them to seriously consider some of their own policies (AV being the big one). Lib Dems have 9% of the House of Commons, despite Clegg being deputy PM (a worthless title by all accounts) Labour have far more power to stop the Tories passing a law than Lib Dems do because they have far more seats and so more votes on whether a bill should be passed.

    The 2010 general election campaign had basically bankrupted Labour whilst the Tories were rich, if the Lib Dems had said no to The Tories then the Tories would easily have out-muscled Labour in the re-election and won, we would have got the same outcome except The Tories would have far more seats than the public initially voted for and the Tories would have been able to pass their laws far more easily. Clegg isn't an idiot, I'm sure he knew when he made a deal with the devil that he was committing political suicide but he really had no other choice, it was form a coalition or bankrupt Labour and the Lib Dems and let The Tories have far more power than they were voted in for in 2010.

    I know what a coalition is thanks. Cheers for the slightly irrelevant rant. :hat2:
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    Nick Clegg has made a good decision for himself, in forming the coalition with the Conservative Party. He got a title , Deputy Leader of the Government. The Lib Dems got a few ministers - a taste of power which they wouldn't have got otherwise.

    However in the longer term he has not read the situation correctly but perhaps he has other fish to fry.

    Many Lib Dem voters vote Lib Dem in order to keep the Conservatives out. In reality they are Labour voters voting tactically. By his collusion with the Conservatives he has lost these voters for ever. Vote Lib Dem and they will prop up the Conservatives. There is apparently no Conservative policy, the bedroom tax, privatisation, cutting the income of the poorest while giving huge tax cuts to the richest, that he will not support. Witness his own seat where he is now only 3% ahead of the Labour Party. This is a seat that had a Conservative MP in the past and he mistakenly calculated that he needed to talk rightwing to them but by his tactics he is driving it leftwards.

    Of course he is a very poor constituency MP. He has obviously no confidence at this stage that he will be reelected. He failed to back loans for Sheffield firms. He sold his house in the constituency and moved south. A signal to everyone there that he believes he has no future in Sheffield. Had he spoken to his constituency more he would have realised that campaigning, for example, that more money should be spent on rich areas instead of poor ones ( the infamous no money for ( Labour) favoured, ie poor, areas campaigns) only confirms his constituents' fears that he is a closet Tory.

    His constituency is in South Yorkshire. An area devastated by Conservative policies towards the Mining and Steel industries. Had he read up on its history he might have known this. Not only the 'lower class' people he and his party despise but also many business people were affected. Many small businesses were dependent on Mining and Steel. These people will not vote Conservative and the Conservative Party is in disarray. Neither they nor the Lib Dems can find a local person to stand.

    A consequence of Nick Clegg's unprincipled actions,( not just viv a vis the Students), is that he has destroyed the LIb Dem Party and demoralised his own activists, and amazingly Sheffield Hallam, one of the richest constituencies in the country, with one of the highest number of graduates in the country, is on the brink of electing a Labour MP, Oliver Coppard - born and living locally.

    You couldn't make it up!
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    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    I know what a coalition is thanks. Cheers for the slightly irrelevant rant. :hat2:
    Then what exactly is your problem with the Lib Dems? You seem to only not like them because they had power despite not being elected with a majority, but the reality is they have the third most power, which reflects how many seats they had.
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    The Lib Dems are the ideal choice if you want social democracy, a focus on human rights, promotion of globalisation, and a second referendum on Brexit.
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    I'm voting Liberal Democat on June 8.
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    (Original post by SBKA)
    I just feel they get an unfair amount of hate.

    People always go on about Nick Clegg 'betraying' students but don't understand that the Liberal Democrats entered a coalition in which both parties had to renege on manifesto promises.
    Nick Clegg was the only one I ever liked. Tim Farron is a joke and quite clearly wants Brexit to be a complete failure. Either that or he just has zero idea how negotiations work, probably the former tbh.
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    (Original post by aeroline1999)
    Nick Clegg was the only one I ever liked. Tim Farron is a joke and quite clearly wants Brexit to be a complete failure. Either that or he just has zero idea how negotiations work, probably the former tbh.
    Nick Clegg sold out over tuition fees, Tim Farron is principled and honest.
 
 
 
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