What do you think a feminist is? Watch

HuggleyDuck
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#61
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#61
Of course women can rape men! Rape is unconsenting sex, the gender of the participants does not matter.

And whilst its true that women are the more oppressed gender, men can be oppressed too by the same system. Male rape is just as awful, wrong and traumatising as female rape, can I encourage you to consider how you have made any male rape victims feel by saying that their rape isn't a big deal.

Edit - this post is a reply to the one above, for some reason it doesn't look like it, maybe bc I'm on mobile
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scrunkie
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#62
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(Original post by HuggleyDuck)
Of course women can rape men! Rape is unconsenting sex, the gender of the participants does not matter.

And whilst its true that women are the more oppressed gender, men can be oppressed too by the same system. Male rape is just as awful, wrong and traumatising as female rape, can I encourage you to consider how you have made any male rape victims feel by saying that their rape isn't a big deal.

Edit - this post is a reply to the one above, for some reason it doesn't look like it, maybe bc I'm on mobile
Rape actually only occurs when someone has been penetrated by a penis. So a man can be raped by another man but not by a woman as she has no penis.


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skunkboy
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#63
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#63
They are all just a pressure group. They have been trying to put pressure on people who don't agree with them. Dangerous? No. Annoying? Yeah, sometimes.
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jazjaz
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#64
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(Original post by HuggleyDuck)
Feminism doesn't concentrate solely on the issues of one gender, it does try to help men too but there is more of a focus on women's issues because women are in the vast majority of cases not given equal rights and opportunities.
Name me 2 feminists who have campaigned for male issues... Feminism has a problem with male victims.
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tazarooni89
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#65
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(Original post by dyslexicvegie)
For me Feminism means, I believe in equal rights and opportunities for men and women in all things. That doesn't seem so controversial. But identifying as a feminist seems to be.

So that got me thinking, is feminism generally regarded differently to how I would describe it?
I don't think you can define feminism with a static, "official" meaning. It's more than just a case of getting out a dictionary, seeing that it means "equal rights and opportunities for both sexes" and then using it to mean exactly that, because most people won't interpret it that way.

The meaning of "feminism" is ascertained by looking at all the people who describe themselves using that word and seeing what they seem to have in common, that other people don't. Equal rights and opportunities for both sexes is something that pretty much anyone in our society would believe in, even if they don't describe themselves as a feminist. So it kind of undermines the association between the word and this particular concept.

In my experience, people who describe themselves as "feminists" seem to have various attitudes and beliefs in common that have little to do with purely supporting equal rights and opportunities, and that are unlikely to find as much universal support in the rest of the population.

For example, they will tend to be pro-choice rather than pro-life, since it is to a woman's advantage to have the option to abort. They will tend to oppose strong cultural differences between men and women, for example disliking the fact that women take their husbands' surnames, or that some toys are specifically marketed towards girls and some specifically towards boys. They will tend to vehemently oppose the suggestion that precautions can and should be taken to reduce the chances of one's self getting raped. They will tend to be very active in supporting the interests of LGBT people. They will tend not to accept that "men and women are very different by nature" as an explanation of why there are such differing trends between them. Et cetera.
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HuggleyDuck
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#66
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#66
(Original post by jazjaz)
Name me 2 feminists who have campaigned for male issues... Feminism has a problem with male victims.


Yoko Ono: 'This society is driven by neurotic speed and force accelerated by greed, and frustration of not being able to live up to the image of men and women we have created for ourselves; the image has nothing to do with the reality of people.'

Emma Watson: 'Men, I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue, too. Because to date, I've seen my father's role as a parent being valued less by society, despite my need of his presence as a child, as much as my mother's. I've seen young men suffering from mental illness, unable to ask for help for fear it would make them less of a man. In fact, in the UK, suicide is the biggest killer of men between 20 to 49, eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I've seen men fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don't have the benefits of equality, either.'


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JG1233
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#67
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(Original post by HuggleyDuck)


Yoko Ono: 'This society is driven by neurotic speed and force accelerated by greed, and frustration of not being able to live up to the image of men and women we have created for ourselves; the image has nothing to do with the reality of people.'

Emma Watson: 'Men, I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue, too. Because to date, I've seen my father's role as a parent being valued less by society, despite my need of his presence as a child, as much as my mother's. I've seen young men suffering from mental illness, unable to ask for help for fear it would make them less of a man. In fact, in the UK, suicide is the biggest killer of men between 20 to 49, eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I've seen men fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don't have the benefits of equality, either.'


I'm fairly sure he said campaign not just mention quotes.

Talk is cheap, what actions have feminists especially within the UK actually taken to help men?
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RandZul'Zorander
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#68
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#68
(Original post by jazjaz)
Name me 2 feminists who have campaigned for male issues... Feminism has a problem with male victims.
http://brutereason.net/2012/09/20/in...-a-handy-list/ its really not very hard to do.
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Implication
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#69
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#69
(Original post by sacca)
women can't rape men as rape require penetration, also women are oppressed by men so the real story is that not some odd man getting raped here and there it isn't a big deal in the big picture.
(Original post by scrunkie)
Rape actually only occurs when someone has been penetrated by a penis. So a man can be raped by another man but not by a woman as she has no penis.


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That's the legal definition in the UK specifically, but in virtually all other spheres of life and discussion this is just wrong. And I think the fact that women technically can't 'rape' in this country (due to silly legal semantics) likely goes a significant way towards trivializing such rapes (because they do happen, whether you call them rape or not).

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NYU℠
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#70
(Original post by tazarooni89)
For example, they will tend to be pro-choice rather than pro-life, since it is to a woman's advantage to have the option to abort. They will tend to oppose strong cultural differences between men and women, for example disliking the fact that women take their husbands' surnames, or that some toys are specifically marketed towards girls and some specifically towards boys. They will tend to vehemently oppose the suggestion that precautions can and should be taken to reduce the chances of one's self getting raped. They will tend to be very active in supporting the interests of LGBT people. They will tend not to accept that "men and women are very different by nature" as an explanation of why there are such differing trends between them. Et cetera.
This is a very problematic analysis, primarily because you're really only describing postmodern feminism, and perhaps liberal or radical.

Cultural feminism emphasizes the differences between men and women, that women have a particular 'essence', etc.

To try to ascribe a set of beliefs to 'feminism' beyond equality (you cannot even specific if you're talking about formal or substantive equality without picking a type of feminism) is a virtually impossible task.

The beliefs of individual feminists will depend almost entirely on their theory of feminism (cultural, radical, liberal, postmodern, lesbian, socialist, marxist, pro-life, postcolonial, individualist, difference, structuralist, sex positive, third world, trans, global, etc.) and many times beyond a view that some form of equality is good, individual and theoretical perspectives often differ greatly.
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tazarooni89
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#71
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(Original post by NYU2012)
This is a very problematic analysis, primarily because you're really only describing postmodern feminism, and perhaps liberal or radical.

Cultural feminism emphasizes the differences between men and women, that women have a particular 'essence', etc.

To try to ascribe a set of beliefs to 'feminism' beyond equality (you cannot even specific if you're talking about formal or substantive equality without picking a type of feminism) is a virtually impossible task.

The beliefs of individual feminists will depend almost entirely on their theory of feminism (cultural, radical, liberal, postmodern, lesbian, socialist, marxist, pro-life, postcolonial, individualist, difference, structuralist, sex positive, third world, trans, global, etc.) and many times beyond a view that some form of equality is good, individual and theoretical perspectives often differ greatly.
I'm not really trying to define in my post what feminism "actually" means though. I don't think it "actually" means anything. It is a word used by all kinds of people to describe all kinds of things, and can mean pretty much whatever the user wants it to mean.

My point is mainly just that, you can't really say "It means no more and no less than wanting equal rights and opportunities for men and women" and just expect everyone to agree with you. Because the fact is, when you say "feminism" to someone, a whole host of extra ideas beyond this are likely to come to mind. I've just given some examples of what some of those may be. It's also probably the main reason why many people, despite being completely for equal rights and opportunities, would not want to use that word to describe themselves. In particular, I strongly disagree with those who argue "If you say you're not a feminist, then you're sexist. If you say you're not sexist, then you're a feminist".

Personally, I think that because this word is so vague and carries all sorts of baggage, when describing yourself or another individual, it's much easier to just tell them what it is you believe, rather than using "feminist" as a label which just makes you a member of a particular club.
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Implication
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Only some of this will directly address the OP but hopefully all relevant... I'll probably say a few things about the feminist movement in general but I'll try not to generalise or stereotype too much.

My reluctance to identify as a feminist is essentially for four reasons. First, I recognise that feminism is not the end goal in itself. It's just a tool that we can use to push for one aspect of the real goal: liberty and social justice for everyone. Some feminists do not agree, and hence can make the worldview they propose seem "authoritarian" or "fascist". For instance, I agree with most self-proclaimed feminists that page 3 of the Sun is probably not an appropriate thing to be in the middle of a newspaper. However, to take away the liberty of the paper's owners/editors to publish whatever legal material they wish is not something I can agree with. Why? Because it conflicts with the end goal of liberty. And so I signed a petition requesting Rupert Murdoch (I believe) to remove page 3, but would never have supported any legislative move to prevent page 3.

Second, many people like to argue that a feminist is simply someone who is in favour of equal rights for both genders (and/or sexes). This leaves virtually everyone a feminist. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, the movement itself (and feminists in general) often seems to be needlessly gynocentric. A movement that purports to advocate equal rights for all should not be so polarised. Even if we concede that women are the victims of sexism and related problems more than men and do have fewer rights than men, this still shouldn't happen. For example, the crime of rape is an issue for both genders. At least for the sake of this argument, let's assume that it affects women far more than men. It's still an issue for men. It doesn't necessarily require the same level of support (since it is less prevalent), but the whole attitude just smells very wrong to me. Rape is wrong, and we should try to prevent it. There is just absolutely no need to divide the issue into "rape against women" and "rape against men": rape is rape and rape is wrong. We don't need to provide support to women who are victims of rape and support to men who are victims of rape; we just need to provide support to victims of rape! And we most certainly shouldn't be spouting sexist rubbish like "we should be teaching men not to rape, not women not to be raped". We should be teaching potential rapists not to rape, whether they are men or women or neither or both!

Similarly, if feminism is about equal rights for men and women, we shouldn't see any special privileges given to women when it comes to feminism. My opinion about equal rights - and hence feminism - is not less valid just because I happen to be male. Neither should feminism be a "safe space" for women to talk without "intrusion" of men. That's for women's networks and perhaps a discussion for another time. This shouldn't really need to be said, but if feminism is about equal rights for men and women, then it just should not be explicitly sexist!

The third reason (and hopefully this will address any concerns about stereotyping, generalising etc.) is that feminism doesn't seem to be well defined. Some people argue that feminism is just supporting equal rights; some will say that it's supporting equal rights for women; some that it is equal rights for all with a focus on women. Some will say you're only a "true feminist" if you do/say/believe x, y and z. What I support is equal rights for men and women, and I don't want all the prejudiced baggage that comes with being associated with other understandings of the word "feminism".

Finally, assuming the liberal definition of feminism, identifying as a feminist just shouldn't be necessary. I don't label myself as a non-racist, non-homophobe, non-xenophobe etc. I'm just not a ****. But more than unnecessary, it could actually be unhelpful. When we're talking about these issues, if you just come out and say "I'm a feminist and..." or "as a feminist..." you automatically put yourself at a disadvantage. People have preconceived notions of what a feminist "should" believe and will expect you to hold to them, and likely will argue against beliefs you don't even hold. Similarly, some people will disregard what you say immediately because "you're one of those crazy feminists".

Here's a better approach: go "under the radar" as a normal, rational, moral person. When someone says or does something sexist or otherwise stupid or immoral, point it out. Tell people what you actually believe and dispense with the unnecessary labels and all the associated prejudice that comes with them.
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kahill18
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#73
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(Original post by JG1233)
I'm fairly sure he said campaign not just mention quotes.

Talk is cheap, what actions have feminists especially within the UK actually taken to help men?
The quote taken from Emma Watson was a part of a speech that introduced the HeForShe campaign. A campaign which advocates equal rights for men as well, so before trying to nit pick and spout out crap you obviously don't know much about maybe look up what you're trying to argue first otherwise you just look ignorant.
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JG1233
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#74
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(Original post by kahill18)
The quote taken from Emma Watson was a part of a speech that introduced the HeForShe campaign. A campaign which advocates equal rights for men as well, so before trying to nit pick and spout out crap you obviously don't know much about maybe look up what you're trying to argue first otherwise you just look ignorant.
Implying i'm ignorant whilst in the same sentence honestly trying to suggest feminists from their recent actions have anything other than women in mind.

Brilliant.
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Implication
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(Original post by kahill18)
The quote taken from Emma Watson was a part of a speech that introduced the HeForShe campaign. A campaign which advocates equal rights for men as well, so before trying to nit pick and spout out crap you obviously don't know much about maybe look up what you're trying to argue first otherwise you just look ignorant.
Isn't HeForShe a campaign to get men supporting women's rights rather than a campaign for men as well as women's rights? Could be wrong but that's the impression I had and the website seems to confirm it.
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Wade-
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(Original post by Implication)
Isn't HeForShe a campaign to get men supporting women's rights rather than a campaign for men as well as women's rights? Could be wrong but that's the impression I had and the website seems to confirm it.
Yeah it's pretty much just a hot actress trying to turn men into white knight, femnazi's


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HuggleyDuck
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#77
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(Original post by JG1233)
I'm fairly sure he said campaign not just mention quotes.

Talk is cheap, what actions have feminists especially within the UK actually taken to help men?
Because would he have believed me if I didn't back up my answer?

And hey, question right back at you. Why do some men refuse to be feminists because it focuses more on women? Why do some men need to be assured of a personal benefit before they want to help women?
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Implication
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#78
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(Original post by HuggleyDuck)
Why do some men refuse to be feminists because it focuses more on women? Why do some men need to be assured of a personal benefit before they want to help women?
Two different questions, the latter of which is very loaded: most men don't "need to be assured of a personal benefit".

Some men refuse to call themselves feminists because it seems to be needlessly women-focused for a movement that purportedly supports equality for all genders. There is just no need to portray rape and domestic abuse (for example) as crimes against women: they are just crimes. We can't have it both ways: either feminism really is about women's rights specifically, or it shouldn't be divisive when it comes to gender.
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JG1233
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(Original post by HuggleyDuck)
Because would he have believed me if I didn't back up my answer?

And hey, question right back at you. Why do some men refuse to be feminists because it focuses more on women? Why do some men need to be assured of a personal benefit before they want to help women?
I'd replace the more on women to solely on women, you still haven't even been able to find a single feminist campaign that's been targeted at helping men.

And because i would identify as somebody who supports egalitarianism. Something which actually does campaign on behalf of both genders, and something which has not become infested with extremists such as feminism. Modern days feminism seems more to be fighting for 'Women>Men', and whilst supporting equality why would any man support that?
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Wade-
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(Original post by JG1233)
I'd replace the more on women to solely on women, you still haven't even been able to find a single feminist campaign that's been targeted at helping men.

And because i would identify as somebody who supports egalitarianism. Something which actually does campaign on behalf of both genders, and something which has not become infested with extremists such as feminism. Modern days feminism seems more to be fighting for 'Women>Men', and whilst supporting equality why would any man support that?
I completely agree with everything you said


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