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    (Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
    If the Scottish people call for another referendum, then they will get another referendum. What the first minister or former first minister say is irrelevant really.
    No the SNP only care about independence and don't give a stuff about what anyone else thinks.


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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    True but what does that have to do with it. Not many MPs in Westminster are elected based purely, mostly, or even significantly because on their own merits. People overwhelmingly vote for parties, rather than candidates.

    The vast majority of the Scottish MPs displaced sat in safe seats without ever really facing a challenge, before this year, whether their rhetoric was vague or not.
    The SNP told us it is best to be run by people who live and work in Scotland. My new SNP MP for Fife North East lives in Edinburgh and has never worked in the constituency. He beat a Lib Dem with decades of experience in the area who was recommended by the outgoing, well respected Ming Campbell.

    It's a joke. Their electioneering made no attempt to say why the candidate was good for the area in particular, but only generic ones about the SNP ruffling feathers at Westminster. I know it was common before but it is a joke seeing the quality of some of the people elected over others whose only crime seems to have been unionism.


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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    It'll happen when people vote in a government running for it. My bet would be 2021-23.
    it will be well before that....

    Once Westminster next week start their nonsense that will start the ball rolling.

    whether it be referendum or UDI

    they only need 11 MP's in Westminster to declare UDI but it would need to be in their manifesto
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    it will be well before that....

    Once Westminster next week start their nonsense that will start the ball rolling.

    whether it be referendum or UDI

    they only need 11 MP's in Westminster to declare UDI but it would need to be in their manifesto
    UDI will be hilarious without a state pension system.

    I'm game!
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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    That it was decisive...until the next one.
    allegedly decisive....

    l don't really want a referendum = to much fiddling going on... l'd rather see a UDI declared...
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    allegedly decisive....

    l don't really want a referendum = to much fiddling going on... l'd rather see a UDI declared...
    So you want the unemployed to go without money?

    sad you want the poor to suffer.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Except not everyone votes for a party agreeing with every one of it's policies in the manifesto. Indeed very few fall in to this category, so I don't take an SNP majority as enough evidence that the Scottish electorate wants one. The last referendum showed this to be the case.


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    Which you can say for every policy of every party at every election ever.

    We can argue about whether there should be another one and after how long it should be but the reality is, if there is a majority of MSPs in Holyrood who will vote for it, they will.

    I don't take the SNP majority this year as evidence that the majority want another referendum during this parliament either.
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    I don't want a UDI and as long as the power to hold a future referendum is transferred to Holyrood, there will never be a need for one.
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    (Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
    If the Scottish people call for another referendum, then they will get another referendum. What the first minister or former first minister say is irrelevant really.
    As much as this gets repeated, it's absolute nonsense. The point of a referendum is the gauge public opinion: you can't reliably determine it without one. How do "the Scottish people" "call" for a referendum? In reality, what this can only mean is that their democratic representatives do that.

    If you're thinking of opinion polling, then I could well point out that opinion polls on whether there should be a referendum on any particular issue almost universally come back showing large support.

    For the SNP to pretend some sort of acclamation of the people can be made - particularly when they're opposing the holding of popular referendums, like one on EU membership - is claptrap.
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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    I don't want a UDI and as long as the power to hold a future referendum is transferred to Holyrood, there will never be a need for one.
    I really don't see that power being transferred. As the UK Government set out last time, it sees itself as responsible for that authority, which involved guaranteeing the fairness of the process (through, for example, requiring the oversight of the Electoral Commission). If it was to be devolved, it would be under several conditions - a Canadian Clarity Act style measure - which may as well put in place time limits on regularity.

    Anyway, are you seriously contending that UDI is somehow viable? I can excuse babybuntin on this, because she's a couple of sandwiches short of the proverbial picnic, but for the rest of us even to talk like this is a possibility shows some level of rational disconnect.

    The SNP, the Scottish Parliament, your mates in the pub, a cheerful local golden retriever or wee Jimmy Krankie could all unilaterally declare Scotland to be an independent country tomorrow. Hell, SNP councillor and mental health case Pat Lee has been doing it for quite some time.

    In each occasion, however, doing so is and would be of utterly no effect. Simply declaring something does not make it so.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    As much as this gets repeated, it's absolute nonsense. The point of a referendum is the gauge public opinion: you can't reliably determine it without one. How do "the Scottish people" "call" for a referendum? In reality, what this can only mean is that their democratic representatives do that.

    If you're thinking of opinion polling, then I could well point out that opinion polls on whether there should be a referendum on any particular issue almost universally come back showing large support.

    For the SNP to pretend some sort of acclamation of the people can be made - particularly when they're opposing the holding of popular referendums, like one on EU membership - is claptrap.
    No see if Scotland is forced out of the EU it's a disgrace, if Shetland is forced out of the UK it's all above board. Hypocrisy and double standards are allowed if you're Scottish.


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    (Original post by Gordon1985)
    I don't want a UDI and as long as the power to hold a future referendum is transferred to Holyrood, there will never be a need for one.
    l want UDI.... l don't want another referendum... it's a complete fix.... wouldn't give them another chance... call UDI......

    The nationalists are starting to grow impatient and Nicola really can't afford for them to become restless... she needs to settle them someway by putting something in that next manifesto
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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    l want UDI.... l don't want another referendum... it's a complete fix.... wouldn't give them another chance... call UDI......

    The nationalists are starting to grow impatient and Nicola really can't afford for them to become restless... she needs to settle them someway by putting something in that next manifesto
    So they're being patient at the moment?


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    (Original post by babybuntin)
    l want UDI...
    You do realise UDIs are meaningless, yeah? You could declare one tomorrow - Scotland would still be part of the UK.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    So they're being patient at the moment?]
    It's quite interesting, this. I think Nicola Sturgeon realises she'd lose another referendum and won't support holding one unless she felt very secure in her position.

    Yet the nationalist fundamentalists believe it was all either (1) a fix (2) based on lies that can somehow be easily dispelled (3) that there is no end to the 'momentum' for independence and that the referendum could've been won had the campaign just lasted a little bit longer.

    Ultimately they would go into a referendum, do exactly the same things they did before, and expect a different result. That's pretty barmy. Particularly given some of their core arguments, particularly on economics, have absolutely died on their arse in the intervening eight months. From a political perspective, they're idiots.

    But they're also powerful idiots, with a potentially great deal of control over the SNP. If Nicola does not give the impression independence is on the horizon in some way, they will start to create problems.

    The SNP's had problems with its gradualists and fundamentalists before. Perhaps its wishful thinking, but a conflict at this level could split their party.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It's quite interesting, this. I think Nicola Sturgeon realises she'd lose another referendum and won't support holding one unless she felt very secure in her position.

    Yet the nationalist fundamentalists believe it was all either (1) a fix (2) based on lies that can somehow be easily dispelled (3) that there is no end to the 'momentum' for independence and that the referendum could've been won had the campaign just lasted a little bit longer.

    Ultimately they would go into a referendum, do exactly the same things they did before, and expect a different result. That's pretty barmy. Particularly given some of their core arguments, particularly on economics, have absolutely died on their arse in the intervening eight months. From a political perspective, they're idiots.

    But they're also powerful idiots, with a potentially great deal of control over the SNP. If Nicola does not give the impression independence is on the horizon in some way, they will start to create problems.

    The SNP's had problems with its gradualists and fundamentalists before. Perhaps its wishful thinking, but a conflict at this level could split their party.
    They will be campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. Are they not hypocrites of the highest order for doing so?


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    They will be campaigning for the UK to stay in the EU. Are they not hypocrites of the highest order for doing so?


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    Yep, and Alex Salmond has even said he'd work the the Conservatives on that - after having slated Labour for doing the same thing during the Scottish referendum for years.

    ... and only a couple of days after some of his SNP MP colleagues were on a campaign with Nigel Farage...
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    (Original post by L i b)
    As much as this gets repeated, it's absolute nonsense. The point of a referendum is the gauge public opinion: you can't reliably determine it without one. How do "the Scottish people" "call" for a referendum? In reality, what this can only mean is that their democratic representatives do that.
    .
    They "call" for a referendum by voting for a party who's manifesto contains the promise of a referndum
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    (Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
    They "call" for a referendum by voting for a party who's manifesto contains the promise of a referndum
    So it's just normal a normal policy and normal election then? Fine. But that's no more credible than saying there has been some popular acclamation for replacing the Human Rights Act in the UK or additional benefit cuts. Parties are voted in for various reasons and while that gives them legitimacy to put forward their manifesto, I don't confuse that with a popular endorsement of every policy.

    Still, fair enough. I think the UK Government should, in those circumstances, not legislate to allow a referendum - as is their right.

    Let's not forget the Conservatives manifesto said "we will always do our utmost to keep our family of nations together and "we held the referendum on Scottish independence. It was the right thing to do, and the question of Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom is now settled."

    The SNP aren't the only people who have a mandate to bring forward their policy platform.
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    (Original post by VladThe1mpaler)
    They "call" for a referendum by voting for a party who's manifesto contains the promise of a referndum
    that's it.... lol
 
 
 

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