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    (Original post by rufflin)
    It's taken so seriously too, some Muslim parents don't allow their children to say the word 'pig'. Absurd.
    Surely that cannot be true?- Oh how funny.

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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    That is because they are in certain context. You want to know why? Because there is an ENTIRE Surah dedicated in the Quran for these disbelievers. And because it is an entire chapter, we cannot use the argument of context:

    Chapter 109:

    Say, "O disbelievers,
    I do not worship what you worship.
    Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
    Nor will I be a worshipper of what you worship.
    Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
    For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."

    That is an entire chapter, taken as a whole. Nobody can argue changes in context because it is all there.

    As you can see, Islam preaches religious freedom and tolerance and does not preach hate nor punishment.

    As for afterlife, nobody knows. Not even us Muslims know if we will enter heaven or hell. This is up to God and God alone to decide. So cherry picked verses from the Quran are irrelevant.

    If you were ever a real Muslim you'd know.
    You just picked a Surah about disbelievers, ignoring all the Ayah's I put up about the punishments for the disbelievers; massive flaw there. I wasn't ever arguing about the changes of context, I said that they're irrelevant, because the fact is the same.

    Islam does not teach punishment? Don't make me laugh. ANY 'real' Muslim would accept that punishment is a part of Islam, a fundamental part of it actually. The entire basis of not committing sins is based on the fear of the punishment of the hereafter, and the possibility that you may get to Jannah for not sinning. You asked for 1 verse in the Quran regarding non-believers being in Hell for eternity, I presented 4, and now you're claiming they're irrelevant? Get a grip, mate.
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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Surely that cannot be true?- Oh how funny.

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    Actually heard it being said, teaching them to spell it out as "P i g" instead of saying the word.
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    (Original post by Anon_98)
    Surely that cannot be true?- Oh how funny.

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    There are always people who take things to the extreme, from all religions.
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    (Original post by rufflin)
    A build up of things that just didn't sit right with me. One main aspect that I couldn't understand was the fact that God was all-knowing, most forgiving etc, and everyone's life is determined before they are born. Essentially, God 'created' non Muslim humans knowing they would never enter heaven, which is absolutely absurd (e.g. a person born as a Hindu would be classed as a Kaafir/non-believer who would never enter heaven if he died as a Hindu, which God planned to happen anyway). A few other things, but this was the main reason.
    My contention exactly but a way around that is the minority view that even no Muslims can enter heaven as well.

    The ruling goes something like.. if you genuinely believe that Islam is not a true faith and yours is then you wont be liable

    I still don't think that's good enough cuz of stuff like god saying he loves us more then 70 mothers and then saying more of us will be in helll.....
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    I thought that the Quran was gods word. Or Gods word told to Gaberial told to Mohamed who couldn't read or write meaning God did the sensible thing and forced him to memorise it. So he told it to his followers who eventually told it to someone who could write it down when after it was translated into dozens of languages until we reach today's modern languages making it 100% irrefutably gods word.
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    I'm not upset that he's left Islam. I'm upset that he leaves and tries to reface the religion as Islam. Trying to be one of those "Heroes" that has managed to break loose from the chains of Islam that would have him otherwise decapitated.

    If his claims are true about Islam being the religion he claims it is, then the only reliable proof he can bring is that of the Quran, and not WikiIslam.

    Check your definition of a narrow-minded person. Listening to stories of these hypocrites without referring to the religion itself must surely fall in that category aye?
    You just don't get it do you? Islam is simply a theistic ideology. You can have problems with theism itself (like OP has already mentioned), without needing to identify specific problems with Islam.
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    (Original post by rufflin)
    You just picked a Surah about disbelievers, ignoring all the Ayah's I put up about the punishments for the disbelievers; massive flaw there. I wasn't ever arguing about the changes of context, I said that they're irrelevant, because the fact is the same.

    Islam does not teach punishment? Don't make me laugh. ANY 'real' Muslim would accept that punishment is a part of Islam, a fundamental part of it actually. The entire basis of not committing sins is based on the fear of the punishment of the hereafter, and the possibility that you may get to Jannah for not sinning. You asked for 1 verse in the Quran regarding non-believers being in Hell for eternity, I presented 4, and now you're claiming they're irrelevant? Get a grip, mate.
    You presented 4 verses TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, entirely. They were all written for different people at different times for doing different things. I gave you an ENTIRE chapter dedicated for the Non-believers. In fact the Chapter is SPECIFICALLY called Al-Kafirun (The Non-Believers). Your 4 verses are irrelevant. You go take irrelevant quotes out of the Quran, when there is an entire chapter dedicated for this very topic? Nice try

    And it was me that was arguing that there's a change in context which is exactly why you just given a chapter dedicated to those who do not follow Islam.

    Islam doesn't teach punishment. It teaches that people (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) can fall into 2 different categories depending on their actions in their lifetime. It's not like there's a problem with "not sinning" now is there? I'm a smelling some religious intolerance? Probably so.
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    (Original post by hyenas.ma)
    My contention exactly but a way around that is the minority view that even no Muslims can enter heaven as well.

    The ruling goes something like.. if you genuinely believe that Islam is not a true faith and yours is then you wont be liable

    I still don't think that's good enough cuz of stuff like god saying he loves us more then 70 mothers and then saying more of us will be in helll.....
    It's refreshing to see someone else understand my point of view tbh. Fair enough, the minority view could be valid, but then is God really the most merciful/kind? It doesn't add up when you take these aspects into the bigger picture.
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    (Original post by rufflin)
    It's refreshing to see someone else understand my point of view tbh. Fair enough, the minority view could be valid, but then is God really the most merciful/kind? It doesn't add up when you take these aspects into the bigger picture.
    true
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    If you were ever a real Muslim you'd know.
    Lol, wow...how can you state such a thing. -Oh my.

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    (Original post by rufflin)
    Actually heard it being said, teaching them to spell it out as "P i g" instead of saying the word.
    Oh my, that's ridiculous loll.

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    (Original post by EdmundWoodstock)
    There are always people who take things to the extreme, from all religions.
    Yeah, its irritating.

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    [QUOTE=Faisalshamallakh;55865365]
    Islam doesn't teach punishment.QUOTE]

    Of course it doesn't. That is why you get verses like this one:

    As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah
    5:38
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    (Original post by Faisalshamallakh)
    You presented 4 verses TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, entirely. They were all written for different people at different times for doing different things. I gave you an ENTIRE chapter dedicated for the Non-believers. In fact the Chapter is SPECIFICALLY called Al-Kafirun (The Non-Believers). Your 4 verses are irrelevant. You go take irrelevant quotes out of the Quran, when there is an entire chapter dedicated for this very topic? Nice try

    And it was me that was arguing that there's a change in context which is exactly why you just given a chapter dedicated to those who do not follow Islam.

    Islam doesn't teach punishment. It teaches that people (Muslims & Non-Muslims alike) can fall into 2 different categories depending on their actions in their lifetime. It's not like there's a problem with "not sinning" now is there? I'm a smelling some religious intolerance? Probably so.
    Explain how the 4 verses are irrelevant? They are all verses showing how disbelievers will be punished in hellfire, regardless of whether it was 2015 or 10AD. People were 'created' to be punished in hell fire by God's will.

    Surah Kafirun simply says how the people who believe/disbelieve are different, it doesn't say anything about the 'peace' or 'mercy of Allah'.

    And in terms of the "non sinning", the issue is in the reason behind why Muslims shouldn't sin; in fear of punishment. The entire religion is based upon fear, you can ignore the aspects of Islam that are blatantly, obviously inhumane all you like, doesn't change the fact that it's wrong.
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    (Original post by rufflin)
    It's refreshing to see someone else understand my point of view tbh. Fair enough, the minority view could be valid, but then is God really the most merciful/kind? It doesn't add up when you take these aspects into the bigger picture.
    In this context God certainly isn't the most merciful and most kind, throwing people into hell and torturing them forever is worse than any psychopath or tyrant that's ever existed.
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    (Original post by katbob)
    There's plenty of Internet trolls out there specially from the ex muslim society they troll a lot e.g. quantum, would not be surprised if this was a troll though xD anyway who cares live and let live if someone leaves islam good for him and goodluck in the future ciao
    Quantum isn't from the ex-mus soc but he trolls it sometimes. He is quite a dedicated troll though, sometimes he makes two accounts and debates himself.
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    (Original post by EdmundWoodstock)
    In this context God certainly isn't the most merciful and most kind, throwing people into hell and torturing them forever is worse than any psychopath or tyrant that's ever existed.
    It's not only the throwing them in the hell fire, it's the fact that he creates them, makes the decision to ensure they 'disbelieve', then punish them for his own decision?
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    (Original post by h3isenberg)
    Quantum isn't from the ex-mus soc but he trolls it sometimes. He is quite a dedicated troll though, sometimes he makes two accounts and debates himself.
    Hahah whattt, no way.

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    (Original post by rufflin)
    It's not only the throwing them in the hell fire, it's the fact that he creates them, makes the decision to ensure they 'disbelieve', then punish them for his own decision?
    So punishing them for something he did? The lengths God goes to to keep himself entertained...
 
 
 
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