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Govt defeated TWICE on tax credits watch

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    While osbourne no doubt expected criticism from the left, he certainly wasn't from the right or the press. He's rattled and you could tell by him harping on about a 'constitutional crisis' , since when have the Tories ever cared about the unelected nature of the HoL?!

    He's rattled for sure, i also don't think he has the 'soft' side (appearance) that Cameron does. Osbourne is much less of a pr man, is far more cold and unfriendly, he won't have the same personal appeal that Cameron does.
    And if these tax credits go through he may just well have put the first nail in his leadership coffin.
    Why would you want that? Osbourne would make a garbage Tory leader, he has the social skills of someone on the autism spectrum and gives off the impression that he has the compassion of a clinically diagnosed psychopath, the guy could never win an election.
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    I am in a conundrum. On one side I hate the House of Lords beyond belief. Unelected scum like the EU ministers who simply look for an easy pay out after they lose their seats or retire from mainstream politics.

    Then I believe the tax credits should be cut at the same time the national living wage is introduced.

    Id rather not sound like a hypocrite, so I think the House of Lords should be burnt to the ground
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    Why would you want that? Osbourne would make a garbage Tory leader, he has the social skills of someone on the autism spectrum and gives off the impression that he has the compassion of a clinically diagnosed psychopath, the guy could never win an election.
    Agreed. He doesn't have the pr skills of a Cameron.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    I am in a conundrum. On side I hate the House of Lords beyond belief. Unelected scum like the EU ministers who simply look for an easy pay out after they lose their seats or retire from mainstream politics.

    Then I believe the tax credits should be cut at the same time the national living wage is introduced.

    Id rather not sound like a hypocrite, so I think the House of Lords should be burnt to the ground
    Then blame it on the communists
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    Then blame it on the communists
    It's more than just communists who want the House of Lords taken away
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Agreed. He doesn't have the pr skills of a Cameron.
    But Boris is nuts and I don't even know if there is a brain under that mop. He is a clever man in the sense It took me a while to notice he clouds his lack of political understanding with comedy. He very rarely answers a question and as London Mayor when he couldn't answer what price the tube fares were, says a lot. He is a showman and that's it. People don't go for that.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    But Boris is nuts and I don't even know if there is a brain under that mop. He is a clever man in the sense It took me a while to notice he clouds his lack of political understanding with comedy. He very rarely answers a question and as London Mayor when he couldn't answer what price the tube fares were, says a lot. He is a showman and that's it. People don't go for that.
    I wish you were right. But unfortunately people do go for that, which is why Boris has won the London Mayoral Election twice in a row despite the fact that in the corresponding London Assembly Elections, Labour have won fairly comfortably.

    Boris is not an idiot- he's very conniving, he just gives off the impression of being a bumbling loveable fool so people forget all the crap he's done and go 'haha look, boris fell over what a legend' etc.

    Osbourne doesn't have the soft, kinder appearance that Cameron has, he isn't as adept at PR and comes across much colder.

    From a Labour perspective, i'd rather Osbourne than Boris.
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    (Original post by Gears265)
    But Boris is nuts and I don't even know if there is a brain under that mop. He is a clever man in the sense It took me a while to notice he clouds his lack of political understanding with comedy. He very rarely answers a question and as London Mayor when he couldn't answer what price the tube fares were, says a lot. He is a showman and that's it. People don't go for that.
    It's one of those perennial questions as to how smart or otherwise Boris is. He's very smart of course, but the key thing to understand about him is that he's also deeply lazy and conniving. It's an odd mix, but he really resented having to work at his job as Mayor and that's been clear all along. I watch those London Question Time sessions regularly and what you see all the time with him is that (a) he has a disturbing, deeply right wing agenda which he tries to hide from being too obvious but which leaks out anyway, (b) he really doesn't give a **** about the job and although he likes bits of the glamour, really wishes he was in Cabinet and (c) is incredibly bone idle. The latter shows up all the time, he has really done nothing as Mayor at all, apart from the cycle scheme (screwed up and now costing a huge amount to the taxpayer) and the Garden Bridge. (His close friend Joanna Lumley wants it, so it's a done deal - no matter what the idiocy or the cost involved.)

    He still tries his pathetic bluff good humour act in the Mayor's QT, but it doesn't fool anyone in the Assembly and hasn't done for ages. They all know he's a ridiculous lazy egomaniac who thinks life owes him the top job, hates Dave for nicking it and doesn't really give a fig about anything else, except possibly sex and making money from endless TV appearances.

    The 'looking ridiculous' thing he does is part of plan C, it still (sadly) seems to work on a gullible public. You have to get close up to him to hate him for what he is, a profoundly out of date 1920s reactionary who wouldn't have been out of place in a Stanley Baldwin government, declaring that threppence halfpenny was too much for the poor dole. :lol:
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    It may interest some here that the House of Lords is at this very moment in the process of annulling an SI relating to electoral registration.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    It may interest some here that the House of Lords is at this very moment in the process of annulling an SI relating to electoral registration.
    yup the *******s won. JUST
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Thanks! I'll try...what would you like to know?
    1) you mentioned that this was not a Bill. How do we know which is which? I honestly thought the debate was on a proposed bill. Had I not chanced upon your post I would have been living with a inaccuracy in my mind.

    2) This year alone Cameron has added some 40++ peers to the House of Lords, many of them his friends. Doesn't this dilute the composition of the Lords in terms of decreasing the number of already existing good willed peers who are there to do whats best for the citizens since the purpose of the Lords is to check the Commons and prevent tyranny?

    3) Are you a student of politics or law? have you done either at A levels? and with which exam boards?
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    Nobody says hard work equals more wealth and nor should it. That's not how it works. It's obviously based on contribution and skills. Supply and demand.

    People don't dispute that a cleaner or a customer service agent might work as hard as a CEO or a doctor but why on Earth would you pay them anywhere near the same? Not sure what planet you're living on but it's certainly not this one
    If you read what I was saying, I was refuting the idea tax credit cuts are TO INCENTIVISE MORE WORK. Furthermore, you present a strawman argument - I didn't ask for equal pay. When did I even come close to saying that? I asked for livable wages and an end to the condemnation of these people in the form of 'they should work harder.
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    (Original post by ~Seraphina~)
    1) you mentioned that this was not a Bill. How do we know which is which? I honestly thought the debate was on a proposed bill. Had I not chanced upon your post I would have been living with a inaccuracy in my mind.
    It was a Regulation - Bills don't get called that! If you look at the Business of the House for that day it'll show you what's being considered. If it says 'XXXXX Bill' then that's a Bill. If it says 'XXXXX Order' or 'Regulations', or the occasional 'Statement of Changes in Immigration Rules', they are statutory instruments.

    They can come in draft or 'made' form, and can be subject to the affirmative or negative scrutiny procedures. I can go into detail on that if you're curious.

    2) This year alone Cameron has added some 40++ peers to the House of Lords, many of them his friends. Doesn't this dilute the composition of the Lords in terms of decreasing the number of already existing good willed peers who are there to do whats best for the citizens since the purpose of the Lords is to check the Commons and prevent tyranny?
    I think your assumption is correct, and it's a problem with the appointments system. I myself support an appointed House but the power of appointment be taken away from the PM and put into a separate entity.

    3) Are you a student of politics or law? have you done either at A levels? and with which exam boards?
    I have completed a Masters degree at Birkbeck College, University of London
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Also how did this pass? Tories have been stuffing the house of lords with Tory lords. :lol:
    There's a left wing majority in the upper chamber and there has been for a while.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    While osbourne no doubt expected criticism from the left, he certainly wasn't from the right or the press. He's rattled and you could tell by him harping on about a 'constitutional crisis' , since when have the Tories ever cared about the unelected nature of the HoL?!

    He's rattled for sure, i also don't think he has the 'soft' side (appearance) that Cameron does. Osbourne is much less of a pr man, is far more cold and unfriendly, he won't have the same personal appeal that Cameron does.
    And if these tax credits go through he may just well have put the first nail in his leadership coffin.
    Are you content with the size of the tax credit bill?
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Are you content with the size of the tax credit bill?
    If we have 100 billion to waste on trident then yeah.
    Also the idea that tax credits cause low wages is absurd - it was the other way round.

    If we had say a £10 minimum wage, and statutory provisions for the self employed I wouldn't mind slashing tax credits, but we don't.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If we have 100 billion to waste on trident then yeah.
    Also the idea that tax credits cause low wages is absurd - it was the other way round.

    If we had say a £10 minimum wage, and statutory provisions for the self employed I wouldn't mind slashing tax credits, but we don't.
    Yeah? That's where most people disagree with you. It has swollen to many multiples of its original size

    And the notion that tax credits drive low wages is not an absurd one as you claim, indeed it is widely accepted - even by the Shadow Chancellor. It has been an unintended consequence, but it has occurred nonetheless. For example, Asda received more subsidies last year than it paid in tax. I'm really not sure how you can defend that (especially given the Labour front bench, who you have a penchant of parroting, is in agreement with me).
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Yeah? That's where most people disagree with you. It has swollen to many multiples of its original size

    And the notion that tax credits drive low wages is not an absurd one as you claim, indeed it is widely accepted - even by the Shadow Chancellor. It has been an unintended consequence, but it has occurred nonetheless. For example, Asda received more subsidies last year than it paid in tax. I'm really not sure how you can defend that (especially given the Labour front bench, who you have a penchant of parroting, is in agreement with me).
    I don't think the bill is too high, not while we're so lax about tax avoidance and not while we're about to spend 100 billion on something we don't need and will never use all for a false sense of 'security'.


    Tax credits were brought in because wages were so low. There is zero empirical evidence that tax credits cause low wages. Rather it's the other way round. The idea that if we get rid of tax credits that Asda, Next and every other store will suddenly go 'ah they've got rid of tax credits, let's pay all our workers £10 an hour minimum' is utterly and truly absurd.
    Yes Asda pays low but there is no reason why we can't mandate a far higher minimum wage and keep tax credits.

    What you're advocating is akin to taking someone's medicine away by saying if we keep healing the effects we won't target the cause. We should be doing both.

    What we should be doing is mandating a far higher minimum wage of £10 an hour and then GRADUALLY reduce tax credits once people are feeling the real benefits of the new minimum wage.

    Research has shown that Osborne's 'living wage' won't even come close to covering the loss of tax credits - not even slightly. On average families are going to be about £1300 a year worse off and this is from impartial research done by the IFS and the like.
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    (Original post by ibzombie96)
    Yeah? That's where most people disagree with you. It has swollen to many multiples of its original size

    And the notion that tax credits drive low wages is not an absurd one as you claim, indeed it is widely accepted - even by the Shadow Chancellor. It has been an unintended consequence, but it has occurred nonetheless. For example, Asda received more subsidies last year than it paid in tax. I'm really not sure how you can defend that (especially given the Labour front bench, who you have a penchant of parroting, is in agreement with me).
    As much as I despise tax credits as a subsidy I have to agree with B here in that wage growth won't change just because tax credits fall in the same way that when inflation hit 5% in 2011, wage growth was not impacted by the squeezed employee either. Firms pay the market rate and that's not significantly impacted by how flush its employees feel due to the labour market power they have.

    Now we should still cut tax credits but I don't care which economists buy into the relationship between welfare and pay growth, nothing I've seen has convinced me the correlation is anything other than weak.
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    Very good performance from Corbyn today at pmqs. Asked about tax credits six times and each time Cameron dodged it.
    The line 'this isn't a constitutional crisis, it's a crisis for 3 million poor families' was particularly effective.

    Corbyn and labour needed this - an issue the whole Labour Party has united behind and one which the Tory party is divided and attracting criticism from the right as well as the left.
 
 
 
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