Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
x Turn on thread page Beta

If transgender why not transrace? watch

Announcements
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by pizzad0gs)
    Nope, there are no physical differences caused by gender. I'll say this again, because you clearly brushed over my comment as if it were nothing, sex and gender are not the same thing.
    "Race surgery" should not be permitted because you can't just "identify" as another race like you can do with gender - there are different brain patterns in people who identify as female, male, and everything in between. I'm done here, no use arguing with someone who honestly believes "transrace" should be a thing, lmao.
    Exactly my point: Certain men or women have a different brain structure which means they identify as the other gender so they have a sex change. If somebody has a different brain structure which meant they identify as a different race then they should be allowed to have a race change because freedom of choice, right?

    I don't know if you can grasp this argument but it seems perfectly logical to me.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    Give it time it will happen

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bjornhattan)
    Biological sex is not a social construct, whereas race is. There are differences between the sexes (such as height, muscle mass and so on), whereas the differences between the races are far less.
    Everything that you have a conceptual frame work for, including the sciences, is a social construct.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Teslamegafan)
    The CEO example was there to showcase the feminist tendency to switch between biological and social arguments as it suits them whether or not there is factual evidence. E.g. women are strong and capable so should be allowed into all army personnel jobs but men shouldn't hit women because women are physically weaker. Feminist hypocrisy at its finest.
    However, that's another issue. The main argument you were making was that gender change is more transformational than race change. You are saying that to be transgender one requires a difference in brain structure but to be transrace one only needs to be raised in a different culture like an adopted child. However, are we not disregarding the physical differences between races like skin colour or less noticeable features like plica palpebronasalis; I doubt these traits are the result of upbringing. My point is if we had treatments to engineer these physical transformations that differentiate between races, ergo becoming transrace, how would that be any different from the transgender treatments we have today.

    EDIT: did not see that you said physical differences aside. Nevertheless I seem to have lost track of the argument. The fact that the emphasis for transgender people to stand out is to become more masculine/feminine looking suggests that the physical characteristics matter more than any other in such transformations. If people are allowed to undergo transgender treatments are now why wouldn't the same logic apply to race change in the future if we get the technology. Such reiterating the initial premise: if transgender why not transrace?
    Yes, transgender people change their appearances and those physical characteristics because they want to make the way they are perceived by others match how they see themselves. A female-to-male transgender person sees themselves as male, and the misfit when other people look at them and see a female is what motivates them to change their physical appearances.
    Maybe in an unreachable ideal world where everyone could entirely cast aside physical appearances and prejudices and see others purely on their actions and words rather than appearances, the term transgender along with any type of surgery would be unnecessary, but right now the idea of gender identity and how someone of a gender should look are very closely linked.

    Why should we see someone from, say, a Chinese background differently to how we see a person from a, e.g. Scottish background? Yes, many people will prejudge others based purely on appearances, whether negatively or positively, but it is up to them to reflect on their prejudices and realise that they have been wrong, not for people to feel they need to change their appearances in order to be seen and respected how they should be.

    "Female-to-male transgender" means a person born female who feels strongly that they are actually male and should be seen as such by others. This person may decide to go through hormonal therapy and surgery to further align how they see themselves to how they appear to the world.
    At the same time, there may be a man who decides he wants to look like and act like a woman for a while for whatever reason (but still feels and identifies himself as a man)- maybe they think this would be an interesting experience. This is not a transgender person, just a man dressing and acting as a woman.

    Okay, one day we will probably be able to change our skin colour and facial features to exactly resemble whatever ethnic group we like. Big deal! Make up, costumes, plastic surgery etc. can already greatly change a person's appearance. In some ways being able to do that would diminish the whole point of belonging to an ethnic group/culture because how you look would no longer be a connection to that culture/race but reduce it to another feature that can be so easily changed like hair colour. Maybe that is not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe it is.

    But in that kind of situation, a term like transrace describing your actual appearance at the present time in comparison to your 'natural' appearance would be just as redundant as transeye-colour or transhair-colour or trans-acneless-face. It is not the same as transgender treatments to help transgender people fulfil the role in society that they see themselves identifying as.

    For example, a person with Chinese parents who was born in Britain and grew up with British culture, may feel that they are British, but that does not mean that they should feel that they need to change their appearance with surgery to look like a 'typical white British person' to be considered British! And if they didn't grow up with British culture, but decided to undergo some surgery look like what they perceive as a 'typical white British person', have they really become 'British' at all?

    I suppose non-transgender people could technically undergo gender re-assignment in that same purely-appearances way, but that would defeat the point and they would feel very uncomfortable in a gender they don't actually feel they belong to.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Pronged Lily)
    Yes, transgender people change their appearances and those physical characteristics because they want to make the way they are perceived by others match how they see themselves. A female-to-male transgender person sees themselves as male, and the misfit when other people look at them and see a female is what motivates them to change their physical appearances.
    Maybe in an unreachable ideal world where everyone could entirely cast aside physical appearances and prejudices and see others purely on their actions and words rather than appearances, the term transgender along with any type of surgery would be unnecessary, but right now the idea of gender identity and how someone of a gender should look are very closely linked.

    Why should we see someone from, say, a Chinese background differently to how we see a person from a, e.g. Scottish background? Yes, many people will prejudge others based purely on appearances, whether negatively or positively, but it is up to them to reflect on their prejudices and realise that they have been wrong, not for people to feel they need to change their appearances in order to be seen and respected how they should be.

    "Female-to-male transgender" means a person born female who feels strongly that they are actually male and should be seen as such by others. This person may decide to go through hormonal therapy and surgery to further align how they see themselves to how they appear to the world.
    At the same time, there may be a man who decides he wants to look like and act like a woman for a while for whatever reason (but still feels and identifies himself as a man)- maybe they think this would be an interesting experience. This is not a transgender person, just a man dressing and acting as a woman.

    Okay, one day we will probably be able to change our skin colour and facial features to exactly resemble whatever ethnic group we like. Big deal! Make up, costumes, plastic surgery etc. can already greatly change a person's appearance. In some ways being able to do that would diminish the whole point of belonging to an ethnic group/culture because how you look would no longer be a connection to that culture/race but reduce it to another feature that can be so easily changed like hair colour. Maybe that is not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe it is.

    But in that kind of situation, a term like transrace describing your actual appearance at the present time in comparison to your 'natural' appearance would be just as redundant as transeye-colour or transhair-colour or trans-acneless-face. It is not the same as transgender treatments to help transgender people fulfil the role in society that they see themselves identifying as.

    For example, a person with Chinese parents who was born in Britain and grew up with British culture, may feel that they are British, but that does not mean that they should feel that they need to change their appearance with surgery to look like a 'typical white British person' to be considered British! And if they didn't grow up with British culture, but decided to undergo some surgery look like what they perceive as a 'typical white British person', have they really become 'British' at all?

    I suppose non-transgender people could technically undergo gender re-assignment in that same purely-appearances way, but that would defeat the point and they would feel very uncomfortable in a gender they don't actually feel they belong to.
    I understand what you mean. To most transgender people the feeling that they have been born into the wrong gender is involuntary which is why they may put themselves through difficult situations such as harassment inside and outside the workplace to stay true to their identity. It is a more difficult change because the differences between men and women are greater than the differences between races (aside from physical appearance). For example, like you said a Chinese person may be more similar to a Scottish person rather than another Chinese person. Thus any attempt on the Chinese person's part to look like the Scottish person would be more like accessorizing one's phenotype than making an important emotional life changing transformation.

    How then, could transrace still exist? Only by redefining the word race. By using the human genome research it would be possible to form new categories based on real differences in genes, however, this would mean looking past physical appearance which would like you say only work in an ideal world. For example one could divide the world into two main genders male and female, and two main races blood groups A and B for greater accuracy rather than use nationalities. However, the trans aspect would only work with gender reassignment because we have an emotional attachment to gender: it has a great impact on our daily lives. On the other hand our blood group is non-physical/genetic and has little impact on our daily lives except perhaps when seeing the doctor. Therefore the only way for a transrace person to exist in this scenario is not to create an emotional connection (because there isn't one) but if possible to direct through genetic intervention a type A person's body to behave like a type B however this would be unnecessary and possibly immoral.

    In conclusion, I think transgender works because there is a clear physical and genetic difference between the sexes. In contrast with races the physical and genetic gaps are not sympatico therefore transrace only works either with a radical change in perspective (unlikely to happen) or direct genetic intervention.

    i think I have got this right but if there is a mistake in my reasoning feel free to let me know. I may not see any comments for a while though because I'm going to take some time off TSR. Nevertheless this has been an interesting discussion.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bjornhattan)
    Biological sex is not a social construct, whereas race is. There are differences between the sexes (such as height, muscle mass and so on), whereas the differences between the races are far less.
    Eh? You mean like how Asians are typically smaller than other races? Or that black people tend to have greater physical prowess?
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: October 29, 2015
Poll
Do I go to The Streets tomorrow night?
Useful resources
AtCTs

Ask the Community Team

Got a question about the site content or our moderation? Ask here.

Welcome Lounge

Welcome Lounge

We're a friendly bunch. Post here if you're new to TSR.

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.