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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

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    This thread stinks of ignorance.
    So the only way to not be oppressed is to go out decorate yourself infront of men to recieve attention?

    And here is the sad part you seem to be deluded in thinking that the women are forced to wear a burkah?. Sure theyre raised to dress modestly but by no stretch of definiton can that be misinterpeted as forced, what evidence do you have to claim that majority of muslims are forced to wear a burkah.
    ... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The fact you've made a little numbered list and dismissed my argument as "invalid" unfortunately doesn't change the fact that your response is empty. The burqa and bikini are argued as being oppressive because they supposedly are imposed on women by men. The burqa is an imposition on Muslim women, imposed on them by patriarchal traditions that go back thousands of years. Wearing a burqa is not practical, comfortable, and only exists to appease men. Therefore it is oppressive. Even if they choose to wear it, it is still something worn that indicates submission to a patriachal demand. On the other hand, I have proven that without men, women would still be wearing the bikini in certain situations, or even less, so the bikini is not imposed on women, and it is therefore not oppressive.
    Youve proven nothing, especially since youve used hypothetical arguments. It is infact your argument that is empty.
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    Hey, if some Muslim women actually like dressing like they're at war with the visible spectrum, who am I to judge?
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    (Original post by PPF)
    There's so much wrong in this post that I'm not even gonna bother replying.

    Good Night.
    That's as close to an acceptance of defeat that one can possibly hope for in an argument on the internet.

    Good job, OP.
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    (Original post by Alrounder79)
    That's as close to an acceptance of defeat that one can possibly hope for in an argument on the internet.

    Good job, OP.
    Lol.
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    If you're raised in a culture where women find it to be a gift, as it relates to their religion, or a rule that needs to be followed by their religion, then it wouldn't feel or seem oppressive. Yea, I don't think wearing a bikini is oppressive. Thing is, at least I have a CHOICE to dress as I wish, unlike in some cultures, women don't have the freedom to choose.
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    (Original post by FishLover)
    Can't everyone just wear whatever they want :sigh:. If someone doesn't feel oppressed even if you think they are being oppressed and just don't know it, I honestly don't see what the big deal is.
    So let's talk about the apocryphal Little Timmy. He has never seen sunlight, because his parents keep him locked in the basement. He's been treated that way all his life, so he doesn't know any better.

    But heh, he doesn't know he's oppressed so what's the big deal!

    (Original post by Mentally)
    ... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done
    A man with no limbs might "choose" to not become a mountaineer. And islamic upbringing figuratively severs the limbs of critical thinking.
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    So let's talk about the apocryphal Little Timmy. He has never seen sunlight, because his parents keep him locked in the basement. He's been treated that way all his life, so he doesn't know any better.

    But heh, he doesn't know he's oppressed so what's the big deal!
    The way I see it, Timmy is choosing to stay in the basement and so I don't care about what happens to Timmy. As long as it's Timmy's choice I don't care. And yes even if the reason Timmy is staying in the basement is because his parent's told him horror stories about the outside world, I honestly, just don't care. As long as Timmy is happy in the basement, I'm :indiff:

    PS: I might not reply to you again if you quote me on this thread. I live to keep off debate threads in general but especially religion/politics related ones (I like to read them but keep off them) Plus I really don't have anything interesting or noteworthy to contribute most of the time. Hope you understand

    PPS: If you can't tell already, I really enjoyed the Timmy allegory :h:
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I don't understand why you keep making references to sexual selection.

    In this little scenario that you had posted earlier, there are no men so therefore, no sex is involved yet you still maintain that women will still scrutinize and criticize each other's appearance, attire and well-being.

    No I don't maintain that. I'm saying that women wouldn't have a hand in the sexual selection competition if they were not around men, but I'm also saying it's also not an imposition for them to play in it, it is natural and it's an integral part of being human. Without men, women wouldn't also be able to have children, but that doesn't mean that having children is an imposition on women. This is because neither having children nor competing in the sexual selection process have been invented; they're written into our DNA. On the other hand, the burqa is an imposition; it an invention that has been imposed on womankind by a patriarchal culture. Without said patriarchal culture women would never have invented it and chosen to wear it. It is unnatural and stifles the dance with sexuality we all play in the game of men and women, and which is a very important part of ourselves.

    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I agree entirely, although I am too liberal to want it banned. I don't hang around in highly Muslim locales but it doesn't seem like the thing is very prevalent: I've seen it once or twice at most. There are no figures for it but the Guardian suggests a number in the thousands. If the burqa is just a confected anti-Islamic bogeyman which has very little relevance in the real world I see less need for banning it.
    I see the burqa being worn quite a lot where I live. Regardless, the whole Burqa vs Bikini dichotomy is symbolic and symptomatic of a bigger dialogue. I wouldn't want it banned in any circumstances. I'm very against this whole banning culture. I think it it deserves criticism, and I think liberal culture needs defending.
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    (Original post by rhiannonm25)
    A. Bikini is something I'd wear when I'm really warm, swimming, sunbathing. It's a piece of clothing. Nothing more nothing less. A burqa is something a woman would wear as part of her religion. Nothing more, nothing less. People should stop overthinking so much
    So do the customs of religions come to existence in a vacuum?
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    (Original post by Mentally)
    This thread stinks of ignorance.
    So the only way to not be oppressed is to go out decorate yourself infront of men to recieve attention?
    Did anyone say that? Nice little straw-man though.

    (Original post by Mentally)
    And here is the sad part you seem to be deluded in thinking that the women are forced to wear a burkah?. Sure theyre raised to dress modestly but by no stretch of definiton can that be misinterpeted as forced, what evidence do you have to claim that majority of muslims are forced to wear a burkah.
    ... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done
    I don't need evidence that Muslims are forced to wear a burqa. Of course it's true that in many Islamic countries, women are forced to wear a veil by law, but let's just forget that blatant example of the mass oppression of women. For the sake of argument, even if this were not true, the fact is that Muslim women feel like they should, like they are obliged to veil themselves to appease an oppressive patriarchal custom that originates from a time when women were considered chattel. They are brainwashed to believe that women must do this or suffer grim consequences, from a very early age. They wear it out of fear of being outcast or going to hell. Telling little girls that they must hide themselves from the public eye, or fear grave consequences, is an example of oppression.

    (Original post by Trevormacdonald)
    Youve proven nothing, especially since youve used hypothetical arguments. It is infact your argument that is empty.
    Wow, this couldn't be more empty, how ironic. You're relying on the fallacy that I can't prove this with a hypothesis, which I already disproved here:

    (Original post by KingBradly)
    Fallacy no.1: You're implying that I need evidence to prove this is true. Clearly this isn't the case, evidence is hardly even relevant. It's like saying you need evidence to show that 1 + 1 = 2. You don't, you can argue with critical thinking, as I have done.

    Fallacy no.2: The idea that I need statistics to back this up is reliant on the idea that someone must know they are oppressed before they can be considered to be. This is clearly not the case. Examples: the captives in the Plato's cave, or a child who is kept locked in the basement by his parents. I don't need their opinions of whether they are oppressed or not to tell me if they are oppressed. They may not know they are oppressed and refute any claims that they are, but regardless of this their situation is simply compliant with the definition of oppression. A child being locked in the basement by the parents is by definition being oppressed by the parents. Therefore I don't need evidence to prove that they are oppressed, I can prove it with critical thinking.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    No I don't maintain that. I'm saying that women wouldn't have a hand in the sexual selection competition if they were not around men, but I'm also saying it's also not an imposition for them to play in it, it is natural and it's an integral part of being human. Without men, women wouldn't also be able to have children, but that doesn't mean that having children is an imposition on women. This is because neither having children nor competing in the sexual selection process have been invented; they're written into our DNA. On the other hand, the burqa is an imposition; it an invention that has been imposed on womankind by a patriarchal culture. Without said patriarchal culture women would never have invented it and chosen to wear it. It is unnatural and stifles the dance with sexuality we all play in the game of men and women, and which is a very important part of ourselves.
    I don't know why you constantly go on about sexual selection when my point had nothing to do with that. In fact, we took sex out of the game when you took men out of the equation.

    So, if women will still scrutinize and criticize other women for their appearance, attire and general well-being, does the Burqa not offer a semblance of anonymity from that?

    Does the Burqa not make it seem like women do not have to condition and conform their bodies to a standard so not only will they be accepted by men, but their gender comrades as well?


    I happen to have read somewhere that talking ill of others, in Islam, is either frowned upon or is a sin so does the Burqa not help women, who choose to wear it, fulfill their religious obligations but not even being able to discuss such aspects, which you have confirmed will still be present, in a society that has absolutely no men?



    *I'm playing devil's advocate here because I think you portray a very poor understanding, as well as a biased and blinded view towards Islam, and Muslims in general.
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    "We are pure, they are filth."



    "We are pure, they are filth."
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    And islamic upbringing figuratively severs the limbs of critical thinking.
    You seem to demonstrate faulty logic.

    If an Islamic upbringing severs the limbs of critical thinking, how come there are ex-Muslims?
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    Very good text OP.

    I have never understood religious people, but on the other hand if someone truly wants to wear burkha then so it be.
    However origins of the veil is rather questionable (to keep other people but their husbands "enjoying" women) and its just a symbol that the woman thinks her body belongs to someone else!
    And how is it possible to distinguish cases where woman is wearing veil voluntarily and where she is not. While one should have liberty to wear what they want the veils certainly have great deal of problems associated with them.

    And bikini is not comparable to burkha. Bikini is meant for swimming and enjoying sun. Burkha is everyday clothing. Bikini is simply put the best avilabe clothing for those activities.

    I have never wore bikini and swimsuit only once because mandarory swimming lessons on elementary school, but if I chose to it was for me, not to make men notice me (I don't want to date anyone, so I truly don't wish them to notice me any other way but as a friend), just like I wouldnt wear veil type clothing solely to prevent men from seeing my body that is covered by button shirt and loose pants anyway.
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    The bikini wearer has a choice. She can wear what she wants to. She can even wear a burka if she wants. But she wouldn't want to do that anyway would she because in Western culture, covering one's face in public is deemed macabre and nonsensical. The burka is disrespectful to all women who are fighting and sacrificing for Women's Rights. It is also disrespectful to all those women who have fought and sacrificed for Women's Rights in the past. The burka belongs to a fundamentalist, religio-political ideology, whose proponents are brought up to believe the family's honour rests in the daughters' virginity before they are married off. That is the psychology underpinning the hiding of the female body from view, where the burka is concerned. In the West there is equality. In Western culture men don't blame the woman and accuse her of being a slut who deserves it when they get raped. In Arabic countries and Muslim parts of North Africa, If the women does not dress according to what the Sharia dictates is proper, then she is fair game. That is basic Sharia. It disgusts me that the burka is deemed acceptable in such a civilised advanced country as Britain. The burka is a symbol of distain and intolerance for the tolerant freedom loving spirit of the West. If one thinks that for a women to dress modestly, she has to hide her whole body, then what is that saying about a women's body? It's sexualising it and placing an unfair psychological burden on the woman's shoulder. But then Islam is all about sex, when the man can have it, how and when he can have it. It's all very sad really. And the women who have bought into believing that the burka is a good thing, are the victims of their misogynistic belief system. I don't dislike Muslims. I feel sorry for female Muslims much more than the men.
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    (Original post by Josb)

    "We are pure, they are filth."



    "We are pure, they are filth."
    All I can think is how scary they all look... and that they must have vitamin D deficiency.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I don't know why you constantly go on about sexual selection when my point had nothing to do with that. In fact, we took sex out of the game when you took men out of the equation.

    So, if women will still scrutinize and criticize other women for their appearance, attire and general well-being, does the Burqa not offer a semblance of anonymity from that?

    Does the Burqa not make it seem like women do not have to condition and conform their bodies to a standard so not only will they be accepted by men, but their gender comrades as well?


    I happen to have read somewhere that talking ill of others, in Islam, is either frowned upon or is a sin so does the Burqa not help women, who choose to wear it, fulfill their religious obligations but not even being able to discuss such aspects, which you have confirmed will still be present, in a society that has absolutely no men?



    *I'm playing devil's advocate here because I think you portray a very poor understanding, as well as a biased and blinded view towards Islam, and Muslims in general.
    I'm not really sure why you keep beating over the same points which I have already explained my views on. Playing an active part in the sexual selection process is not an imposition, nor was it invented. It is biologically evolved. For women to care about their looks is for them to be playing their part in the sexual selection game. The burqa, however, was invented, for the primary function of helping men keep women as their chattel. This is a fact. It has been directly imposed on women by men. It stops women from having a hand in the sexual selection game. This is oppressive. I'm not sure how I'm demonstrating any kind of lack of understanding.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    The bikini wearer has a choice. She can wear what she wants too. She can even wear a burka if she wants. But she wouldn't want to do that anyway would she because in Western culture, covering one's face in public is deemed macabre and nonsensical. The burka is disrespectful to all women who are fighting and sacrificing for Women's Rights. It is also disrespectful to all those women who have fought and sacrificed for Women's Rights in the past. The burka belongs to a fundamentalist, religio-political ideology, whose proponents are brought up to believe the family's honour rests in the daughters' virginity before they are married off. That is the psychology underpinning the hiding of the female body from view, where the burka is concerned. In the West there is equality. In Western culture men don't blame the woman and accuse her of being a slut who deserves it when they get raped. In Arabic countries and Muslim parts of North Africa, If the women does not dress according to what the Sharia dictates is proper, then she is fair game. That is basic Sharia. It disgusts me that the burka is deemed acceptable in such a civilised advanced country as Britain. The burka is a symbol of distain and intolerance for the tolerant freedom loving spirit of the West. If one thinks that for a women to dress modestly, she has to hide her whole body, then what is that saying about a women's body? It's sexualising it and placing an unfair psychological burden on the woman's shoulder. But then Islam is all about sex, when the man can have it, how and when he can have it. It's all very sad really. And the women who have bought into believing that the burka is a good thing, are the victims of their misogynistic belief system. I don't dislike Muslims. I feel sorry for female Muslims much more than the men.
    I agree with your post, but regarding the part in bold; yes, exactly, more people should understand this. If you want to look at a society which is truly obsessed with sex, just look at Saudi Arabia. You cannot avoid their desperate attempts to suppress and repress sexuality. It is everywhere. There is a Zen tale that goes like this: A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her. The senior monk carried this woman on his shoulder, forded the river and let her down on the other bank. The junior monk was very upset, but said nothing. They both were walking and senior monk noticed that his junior was suddenly silent and enquired “Is something the matter, you seem very upset?” The junior monk replied, “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?” The senior monk replied, “I left the woman a long time ago at the bank, however, you seem to be carrying her still.”

    Saudi Arabia, and many oppressive Islamic cultures, are the junior monk, but to the absolute extreme.
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    False equivilancy. Womens' decision to wear weather-appropiate clothing is independant to the existence of men.

    Do women ever wear bikinis in the Arctic circle or in the snow? A burkha isn't what a non-muslim would wear because it's cold. They'd wear a big coat.

    False equivalency. Womens' decision to wear religious-appropriate clothing is independent to the existence of men.

    Do women ever wear <insert garment> in <place or venue>? A <garment> isn't what a non-muslim would wear because it's < place or venue>. They'd wear a big <alternate garment>.
 
 
 
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