Turn on thread page Beta

B904 - Extending Freedom of Movement Bill 2015 watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    A person with 10 years' experience at a job is likely to be better at the job than a person who has a month of experience. I would support some of that but I do think visas need to expire at some point in the future to prevent the immigrant retiring in Britain which creates a burden.
    Let the employer judges that. He's more competent to know the migrant's worth than immigration services.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Here is an image to clarify the different steps each tier of immigration has to go through.

    I like graphs.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    A person with 10 years' experience at a job is likely to be better at the job than a person who has a month of experience. I would support some of that but I do think visas need to expire at some point in the future to prevent the immigrant retiring in Britain which creates a burden.
    So you believe the state is smarter and better qualified to make a decision on suitable candidates than the businesses themselves who have their own survival at stake?
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    Let the employer judges that. He's more competent to know the migrant's worth than immigration services.
    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    So you believe the state is smarter and better qualified to make a decision on suitable candidates than the businesses themselves who have their own survival at stake?
    The trouble with letting businesses decide who they hire is that they may only be looking to hire those demanding lower wages (who may not be the best people to grant work visas to), which would likely lead to wage compression.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    The trouble with letting businesses decide who they hire is that they may only be looking to hire those demanding lower wages (who may not be the best people to grant work visas to), which would likely lead to wage compression.
    So create a minimum immigrants wage?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Study Helper
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Study Helper
    Welcome Squad
    (Original post by Aph)
    So create a minimum immigrants wage?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Good idea

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    So create a minimum immigrants wage?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That would lead to wage compression, as the only wage an employer would want to offer would be the minimum wage, since there would be a massive pool of minimum wage labour if the points system is not implemented. Without this points system, those who deserve to earn more because they are better at the job may not receive the wage that they would get if it were not for mass uncontrolled migration, due to wage compression. We should avoid wage compression, or there will no longer be an incentive for people to work harder to increase their wages.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    That would lead to wage compression, as the only wage an employer would want to offer would be the minimum wage, since there would be a massive pool of minimum wage labour if the points system is not implemented. Without this points system, those who deserve to earn more because they are better at the job may not receive the wage that they would get if it were not for mass uncontrolled migration, due to wage compression. We should avoid wage compression, or there will no longer be an incentive for people to work harder to increase their wages.
    not if what you do is set the minimum immigrants wage at say 50p an hour more then what the market would normally pay. this means that people with lower skills woudl not be hired from abroad unless there was no alternative and a 'points system' would not stop wage compression.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    not if what you do is set the minimum immigrants wage at say 50p an hour more then what the market would normally pay. this means that people with lower skills woudl not be hired from abroad unless there was no alternative and a 'points system' would not stop wage compression.
    Because that would be an intelligent move, making the native population feel like they're worth less than immigrants

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    The trouble with letting businesses decide who they hire is that they may only be looking to hire those demanding lower wages (who may not be the best people to grant work visas to), which would likely lead to wage compression.
    If you put a minimum salary at say 24k, employers will only hire "good" immigrants.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Because that would be an intelligent move, making the native population feel like they're worth less than immigrants

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I'm just saying that it would be better then this bill. even better would be no to do anything at all
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    not if what you do is set the minimum immigrants wage at say 50p an hour more then what the market would normally pay. this means that people with lower skills woudl not be hired from abroad unless there was no alternative and a 'points system' would not stop wage compression.
    There may be some jobs that do not pay such a high wage, yet they are in high demand and require immigrants to do those jobs. Increasing the wage for these jobs would mean that businesses with a small profit margin get killed. Restaurants, for example, are particularly prone to this, and they may not be able to afford paying high wages for jobs that only immigrants have the skills to do, but not locals. The points system solves this problem that a minimum wage for foreign workers does not. A points system ensures that we take in the people we need, and restaurants do not need to close down simply because of a policy that sets a high minimum wage for foreign workers.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    I'm just saying that it would be better then this bill. even better would be no to do anything at all
    Surely if you want to live in a country full of foreigners you could just emigrate to Poland or India, or do you not want to have to learn their language?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    There may be some jobs that do not pay such a high wage, yet they are in high demand and require immigrants to do those jobs. Increasing the wage for these jobs would mean that businesses with a small profit margin get killed. Restaurants, for example, are particularly prone to this, and they may not be able to afford paying high wages for jobs that only immigrants have the skills to do, but not locals. The points system solves this problem that a minimum wage for foreign workers does not. A points system ensures that we take in the people we need, and restaurants do not need to close down simply because of a policy that sets a high minimum wage for foreign workers.
    no it doesn't. please can you stop withe the hyperbole for just one second and actually read your bill?! Cleaners, Waiters, ect. aren't covered in this bill and needed jobs and as such you woudl be staving these businesses of workers under this bill. this will close down far more restraunts then a higher minimum wage and you know it.
    • Very Important Poster
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    Very Important Poster
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Surely if you want to live in a country full of foreigners you could just emigrate to Poland or India, or do you not want to have to learn their language?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I belive that we have no more right to live in this country then anyone else so we should not have any boarders. That was my point
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Aph)
    I belive that we have no more right to live in this country then anyone else so we should not have any boarders. That was my point
    Then why not go to ISIS territory to get blown up rather than bringing them here

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aph)
    no it doesn't. please can you stop withe the hyperbole for just one second and actually read your bill?! Cleaners, Waiters, ect. aren't covered in this bill and needed jobs and as such you woudl be staving these businesses of workers under this bill. this will close down far more restraunts then a higher minimum wage and you know it.
    First of all, I did not write this bill.

    Secondly, cleaners and waiters can easily be recruited from the local population. The points system is useful if there is a lack of chefs who specialise in a particular cuisine that is in high demand and when that demand is not satisfied, BISOL can be amended by the Home Office.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    So you believe the state is smarter and better qualified to make a decision on suitable candidates than the businesses themselves who have their own survival at stake?
    Yes, businesses have incentives to find the cheapest labour available which is the immigrants who come from countries where the minimum wage is less than that in the UK, making minimum wage jobs in Britain an attractive prospect. There are two solutions to this; the first is to raise the minimum in the UK to a level where it is attractive for the unemployed Britons to take on the jobs, but this creates problems as setting an artificial wage above the market wage creates inflation and a reduction in employment; the second is to to reduce the excess supply of labour in the low paid jobs which causes the businesses to increase their wages to find good workers, this bill aims to do this by restricting unskilled workers, raising the market rate of labour in those areas to make the sectors more attractive for unemployed Britons.

    The bill is implicit market intervention to solve the problem of wage compression caused by an excess in labour supply for unskilled jobs; an excess which is on two levels as those from poorer countries will be happier to work for current UK wage rates than those Britons who do not find the wage rate attractive. To put this in context, there would be lots of Britons who would happily accept a job abroad if the job was an unskilled job paying more than three times the UK minimum wage; it is not surprising there is a net movement of unskilled workers to Britain to take advantage of a very high minimum wage, from their perspective.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Unown Uzer)
    The trouble with letting businesses decide who they hire is that they may only be looking to hire those demanding lower wages (who may not be the best people to grant work visas to), which would likely lead to wage compression.
    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    Yes, businesses have incentives to find the cheapest labour available which is the immigrants who come from countries where the minimum wage is less than that in the UK, making minimum wage jobs in Britain an attractive prospect. There are two solutions to this; the first is to raise the minimum in the UK to a level where it is attractive for the unemployed Britons to take on the jobs, but this creates problems as setting an artificial wage above the market wage creates inflation and a reduction in employment; the second is to to reduce the excess supply of labour in the low paid jobs which causes the businesses to increase their wages to find good workers, this bill aims to do this by restricting unskilled workers, raising the market rate of labour in those areas to make the sectors more attractive for unemployed Britons.

    The bill is implicit market intervention to solve the problem of wage compression caused by an excess in labour supply for unskilled jobs; an excess which is on two levels as those from poorer countries will be happier to work for current UK wage rates than those Britons who do not find the wage rate attractive. To put this in context, there would be lots of Britons who would happily accept a job abroad if the job was an unskilled job paying more than three times the UK minimum wage; it is not surprising there is a net movement of unskilled workers to Britain to take advantage of a very high minimum wage, from their perspective.
    When there is a minimum wage requirement like there is now this really is a moot point. The reason why there are unskilled immigrants at all is due to the EU, not the current immigration policy. Unskilled immigrants outside of the EU cannot work in the UK.

    Also, ever if the company hires someone due to their being cheaper (like what the Big Four would do), allowing businesses to maximize their profits still seem to be something that can outweight the potential disadvantage when there already is a minimum wage requirement.

    This is without mentioning the fact that the work experience thing is inflexible. There are many reasons why someone with fewer years can be a better worker: more energetic, more passionate, more open-minded, more refreshing, remember academic and professional training better etc and also that 5 years working as an ibanker surely would be better experience than 20 years working as a bank counter staff. There's also that someone may have been doing a much better job in a shorter period of time.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Little Toy Gun)
    When there is a minimum wage requirement like there is now this really is a moot point. The reason why there are unskilled immigrants at all is due to the EU, not the current immigration policy. Unskilled immigrants outside of the EU cannot work in the UK.

    Also, ever if the company hires someone due to their being cheaper (like what the Big Four would do), allowing businesses to maximize their profits still seem to be something that can outweight the potential disadvantage when there already is a minimum wage requirement.

    This is without mentioning the fact that the work experience thing is inflexible. There are many reasons why someone with fewer years can be a better worker: more energetic, more passionate, more open-minded, more refreshing, remember academic and professional training better etc and also that 5 years working as an ibanker surely would be better experience than 20 years working as a bank counter staff. There's also that someone may have been doing a much better job in a shorter period of time.
    I agree but the current immigration policy is linked with the EU; this bill will restrict unskilled workers form the EU being granted permission to work in Britain. No, I disagree, profit maximisation will happen at all points when the actual wage rate equals the market rage rate. Taking aggregate business figures there would be no benefit to having a lower market wage rate as the spending power of all employees in the economy would be reduced, therefore, it is desirable to have the highest possible market wage rate.

    I do not accept the comparison of a bank clerk with an investment banker as both do different jobs, and the bank clerk is not included in the extended skills list. For all of the jobs in the extended BISOL in this bill, experience is advantageous, as is the case with nearly all jobs where the worker improves with hands-on experience. Academic training for all jobs is to provide a basis for the job with all specialist skills being acquired through on-the-job training or experience. This is most clearly seen with medicine where senior consultants are significantly better doctors than junior doctors in their first year.
 
 
 
Turn on thread page Beta
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: December 18, 2015
Poll
Who do you think it's more helpful to talk about mental health with?

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.