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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    Why shouldn't people integrate?

    I bet if some westerners moved to Saudi Arabia skimpily dressed, advocating gay rights and holding orgies every once in a while they wouldn't be greeted with open arms. A country like that won't tolerate the western societal values it deems disgusting and would expect everyone to integrate and comply with the Islamic laws.
    Actually, countries like Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States in general have compounds where life is similar to what one can expect "back home" (i.e: the West).

    But that's beside the point of the premise of your argument. You can't say that multiculturalism has failed/doesn't work if you are talking about monoculture. If you want to live in a multi-cultural, diverse and vibrant country, then you cannot expect everyone, or indeed the vast majority, to integrate/assimilate.

    (Original post by mariachi)
    of course that we should integrate

    why on Earth should we live one beside the other, in our little cultural, legal, religious, and even physical ghettos ?

    tensions come if people live in separate, organised communities which will start competing with each other for ascendancy : just look at e.g. Lebanon
    Because it's a multicultural society, not a monoculturalist country.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)

    Because it's a multicultural society, not a monoculturalist country.
    there is no law prescribing that the UK should be a multicultural country

    in my view, the multicultural model has failed, and more and more people are realising that
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    there is no law prescribing that the UK should be a multicultural country
    I didn't say there was. It is generally well known and indeed, public policy that the UK is a multicultural society.

    in my view, the multicultural model has failed, and more and more people are realising that
    You only think it's failed because you require integration/assimilation to be a precondition, a concept that is alien and indeed quite the anti-thesis to multiculturalism, one would imagine.

    best.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    I didn't say there was. It is generally well known and indeed, public policy that the UK is a multicultural society.
    not any more.

    You should read up a bit on developments e.g. Cameron in 2011 : "State multiculturalism has failed"

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994

    good night
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    not any more.

    You should read up a bit on developments e.g. Cameron in 2011 : "State multiculturalism has failed"

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-12371994

    good night
    One man's view, from 2011 no less, does not public policy make.

    best
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    One man's view, from 2011 no less, does not public policy make.

    best
    it does, if it comes from the PM
    multiculturalism was a plank of the Labour government platform. Out in 2010.

    night
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    it does, if it comes from the PM
    multiculturalism was a plank of the Labour government platform. Out in 2010.

    night
    Our Prime Minister, as much as I disagree with him, is aware of his constitutional boundaries (though of late, different could be said) and so does not act like an authoritarian totalitarian dictator (despite his eagerness to) where his word reigns supreme (as much as he would prefer it to).

    That's a full lid.

    best
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    Did someone say multiculturalism? * Cocks machine gun *

    Joking.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    My first problem with what you've written is that you're not arguing against multiculturalism, you're arguing against certain examples of multiculturalism that you disagree with. Different cultures can coexist, there are plenty of examples of multiple cultures coexisting perfectly peacefully. If two cultures are unwilling to coexist peacefully or the difference between them is too great then it wouldn't exactly be surprising if tensions arise but that's not something intrinsic to 'multiculturalism'. Of course if you smash two wildly different cultures together with little thought about how to deal with these tensions, you're going to get problems.

    Secondly, whilst I understand why some people find the idea of locking yourself up in your own little country and not getting involved in the world attractive, that's not a particularly sustainable point of view. As human society becomes more advanced and more powerful, there is a very strong incentive for encouraging international homogeneity and cooperation. If there are barriers to multiculturalism (and I'm not going to argue that those barriers don't exist) then it is in our best interest to overcome those barriers.
    PRSOM. Love the second paragraph.
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    The benefits from a multicultural society only emerge when members of individual cultural groups inherently want to integrate and explore other cultures beyond their own.When that happens, you can get interesting and positive results. However when it doesn't, it ends creating a more hostile society with poor social cohesion.

    The process of integration is further aided when cultures share underlying similarities. This is why for example, Indians have integrated more comfortably into British society when compared to Pakistanis despite both being of non-European south Asian origin.

    I think the problem we have at the moment is a lot of the recent immigrants into the UK have come equipped with cultural backgrounds and customs that are incompatible with British society. I also feel post 2000 immigrants have fewer reasons to integrate,share and explore than their 60s,70s 80s, etc counterparts because they are now more likely to find and settle into an established native community - a luxury that existed on a much smaller scale in bygone eras.

    As a result, there are fewer reasons for the average immigrant from the recent influx to step out of the sanctuary of their cultural enclave. There's less of a need to learn English or the quirks of British culture. Unless the individual inherently wants to, there's no real incentive for him or her to explore things that lie outside their cultural bubble. Technology has also made it much easier to maintain a home away from home. Today's immigrant doesn't have to put up with four TV channels that are only available in English. They can now choose to be exclusively entertained by content in their native language. This can further discourage an individual from learning English or exploring British culture.

    People simply end up gravitating towards things that are familiar and this why we have so many insular communities in the UK who don't culturally enrich British society.
    As a Londoner, I see examples of this all the time. The Poles only hang around with other Poles, Vietnamese only mingle with other Vietnamese.Somalis occupy a certain area, etc. Everyone exists in the comfort of their ethnic/cultural zone-there's no cultural crossover.
    You only have look at the enclaves in boroughs like Newham or Tower Hamlets to see how many people don't feel a need to learn English, explore other cultures or even dress like a person living in Europe. They don't because there isn't a real need since they are more often than not surrounded by people who look and speak just like them.

    I think the lack of large established immigrant communities and a greater urgency to learn English and explore British culture and customs were key incentives that compelled immigrants of the 60s,70s,etc to make a greater effort to integrate.
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    (Original post by TheArtofProtest)
    Our Prime Minister, as much as I disagree with him, is aware of his constitutional boundaries (though of late, different could be said) and so does not act like an authoritarian totalitarian dictator (despite his eagerness to) where his word reigns supreme (as much as he would prefer it to).

    That's a full lid.

    best
    what nonsense

    multiculturalism, as I said, was part of the Labour Party approach (and even they started backing out in the last years of the Blair/Brown era)

    The New Government in 2010 never endorsed it, and it is most definitely not part of official policy of the Cameron Government. Which was democratically elected by the British people.

    No dictatorship there, bud
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    Broadly agree with what you're saying (as per the discussion in my related thread on this topic) but, some points of contention:

    Multiculturalism is a catalyst to war and conflict .. pour all those chemicals in one large vat? There's likely going to be an explosion that'd tear the roof off
    Not in all cases e.g. intra-civilisational cultural mixing, or comparable inter-civilisational mixing. Some cultures are more volatile/reactive than others

    People would love to assume that being around people who are completely different to you culturally and scoially would cause people to become more tolerant but it does the exact opposite
    Again, only really where certain groups are concerned and/or under certain circumstances e.g. socioeconomic strains

    lead to believing that anyone who holds such opinions must be less than human and scum
    Only if you are narrow minded. As you're aware, I am no fan of Islamism, but do not presuppose that those who subscribers are anything other than flawed human beings, much the rest of us

    a country in which child marriage is illegal laxing it's laws on child marriage in order to appease a small minority of people. There's no way that won't casue outrage. That's not how legal systems should work
    There's no suggestion that European legislators would ever consider this

    it's clear that multiculturalism is just a utopian fantasy that can't be fully achieved anywhere as much as it pains me to say
    Sorry, but that's no more true than to say that socialism is just a utopian fantasy. In both cases the ideologies haven't been applied properly (democratically, sensibly, patiently, and hence sustainably), that's all

    I can't think of one place where people of conflicting backgrounds and origins live together in perfect peace and harmony
    UN workers in Geneva, Switzerland, and 'Davos culture' elites elsewhere. The key ingredients are affluence (and associated incentives to be civil), education, pre-existing order (e.g. robust institutions and enforcement), and manageable numbers

    When deciding to relocate to a new country you must make this decision. Are you going to be able to accept the laws, societal values and culture of the host nation?
    Will you make an effort to learn the language of the host nation you are moving to?
    Are you going to try and integrate into the society and not form cliques and seperate communities that refuse to mix with others?
    Doesn't technically matter to a migrant if they're happy to live in an area of high minority concentration (parallel societies/states within states)

    Are you going to be kind and respectful to locals even if you don't agree with their culture?
    No need, when their ambition is to convert locals who have 'lost their way', in order to save them from themselves (sadly you can see why they get this idea where 'sinful' Western society is concerned) :rolleyes:

    If the answer to all these is no then I think it's best to stay in your own country
    Agreed, but as you can see above, just asking migrants these searching questions is insufficient. It falls to government to act and, if it won’t, then the people (and believe me, they will)
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    Personally, I feel this is incredibly reductionist. But, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion.
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    Divide and rule
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    (Original post by iEthan)
    Personally, I feel this is incredibly reductionist. But, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion.
    How so?
    Feel free to discuss. I don't bite
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    I agree that multiculturalism does not work. It allows, for example, for a Muslim state within a Christian country.Britain has dumbed down examinations so that those whose first language is not English are not discriminated against. Many schools no longer celebrate The Nativity at Christmas and Easter has become about bonnets and egg hunts. Hymns are no longer sung at morning assembly.Employers must go out of their way to demonstrate that they are not racist.Everyone is careful what they say in public.
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    Multiculturalism has only ever been about eliminating White populations


    Which is why only White majority countries are targets of mass immigration

    It is a conspiracy and one with a lot to back it up

    Why do you think they call it the multicultral MELTING POT? it has nothing to do with culture, but races melting. So that eventually, everyone in Europe is to be mixed race (thus no White people)


    Just ask Alexander Ham on here, I'm sure he is aware of his tribal genocide plotting and a supporter of it.


    Anti-fa always harp on about RESISTing fascism. When in reality many of the so called fascists are the ones resisting.
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    (Original post by StrawbAri)
    This is a topic that has been on my mind for a long time and until today I've been too scared to voice my opinions on it for fear of backlash from my ethnic community.
    I'm aware this topic has been done to death by european nationals that are experiencing the downsides of living in a society where they are being forced to get used to living with so many different people with societal values that are completely different to theirs in order to seem poilitically correct and tolerant despite the harm it's doing to their own society. But as somewhat of an outsider and as someone that this issue Europe ( The migrant crisis) is facing doesn't directly affect I'd like to share what I think of the issue. And my opinions aren't restricted to just Europe but to the world at large.
    Will try to keep it short.



    1. Multiculturalism is a catalyst to war and conflict. Lets take this scenario for example; In a chemistry lab, all the different chemicals are stored separately in their own special bottles specifically designed for the chemical that is being stored within. What happens when you decide to pour all those chemicals in one large vat? There's likely going to be an explosion that'd tear the roof off. Different places have different societal values and it's impossible to ask people to just 'respect' that. Some people can and some people can not. For example some cultures accept child marriages and think sex with minors is justifiable but becasue of my own upbringing and personal morals I just can't accept it and I never will. I personally can not even share a room with someone that thinks that that's okay. It's not difficult how to see how that could possibly lead to conflict and tensions between two groups. Which brings me to my next point.

    2. Multiculturalism incites racial hatred. People would love to assume that being around people who are completely different to you culturally and scoially would cause people to become more tolerant but it does the exact opposite. It highlights the irreconcilable differences between the two groups of people and constantly being exposed to societal values tnat you don't agree with/hate will one way or another lead to believing that anyone who holds such opinions must be less than human and scum. It breeds an us vs them mentality. It's obvious that this will become problematic in the long run.


    3. It affects the legal/judicial system in a country. Once a country's government starts changing it's laws in order to appease a minority rather than the majority then there's a problem. For example, a country in which child marriage is illegal laxing it's laws on child marriage in order to appease a small minority of people. There's no way that won't casue outrage. That's not how legal systems should work.


    4. It dilutes the culture of the host nation. As much as people don't want to admit it, having so many different people coming to live in one place who must by all means take every aspect of their own culture with them, effectively erodes the cultural and national identity of the place they're moving to and it's not fair to the natives of that place. I sure as hell wouldn't want thousands of people to come in to my country and refuse to integrate thereby burying my country's rich cultural heritage..



    After all that's been said, it's clear that multiculturalism is just a utopian fantasy that can't be fully achieved anywhere as much as it pains me to say. I can't think of one place where people of conflicting backgrounds and origins live together in perfect peace and harmony.
    You even get family members and relatives calling you derogatory names for trying to integrate in the new society. (Ie south asians calling other well adjusted south asians 'coconuts'

    By no means a solution but some advice:
    When deciding to relocate to a new country you must make this decision. Are you going to be able to accept the laws, societal values and culture of the host nation? Are you going to be kind and respectful to locals even if you don't agree with their culture? Will you make an effort to learn the language of the host nation you are moving to? Are you going to try and integrate into the society and not form cliques and seperate communities that refuse to mix with others?
    If the answer to all these is no then I think it's best to stay in your own country.

    The only thing I can justify taking along with you are aspects of your culture that your host nation can actively benefit from (ie cuisine, entertainment etc)


    Tldr: Multiculturalism doesn't work effectively anywhere


    Conflicting opinions are welcome
    Multiculturalism does actually work with many cultures. Just look how Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, and Buddhists have integrated into our society. Go to Brixton and see the wonderful mix of old fashioned London culture and Caribbean culture. There is a demographic, a religious demographic, that often has much more trouble integrating. This is so well known that I don't even need to tell you which it is. It is this demographic that makes people think multiculturalism doesn't work.
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    It does...it just depends on the cultures.

    Islam is a culture that doesn't work in multiculturalism. Most other cultures work perfectly fine together these days.

    In fact, studies have shown that children that grow up in diversity are much less likely to be prejudiced towards others (compared to children that grew up without diversity).
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    It does...it just depends on the cultures.

    Islam is a culture that doesn't work in multiculturalism. Most other cultures work perfectly fine together these days.

    In fact, studies have shown that children that grow up in diversity are much less likely to be prejudiced towards others (compared to children that grew up without diversity).
    (Original post by SingAboutMe)
    Multiculturalism does actually work with many cultures. Just look how Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, and Buddhists have integrated into our society. Go to Brixton and see the wonderful mix of old fashioned London culture and Caribbean culture. There is a demographic, a religious demographic, that often has much more trouble integrating. This is so well known that I don't even need to tell you which it is. It is this demographic that makes people think multiculturalism doesn't work.
    I made this thread a while ago so my opinions have shifted from my OP.
    I agree with both of you.
    And I'll add:
    A multi ethnic society where everyone shares the good aspects of their cultures and integrates with the culture of the host nation is ideal but not often the reality because certain groups may suffer from cultural superiority and have a hard time integrating.
 
 
 
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