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    (Original post by MaxReid)
    I think the reason getting reform is like getting blood from a stone is because we are not really attempting to build bridges with other Member States to create a coalition of countries that want change. I think this is part of the problem in these negotiations imo.

    I still think the EU isn't democratic. The European Parliament is the only elected body and cannot initiate legislation, what sort of legislature cannot initiate legislation? I will be voting to Leave due to the remaining issues I have with the EU.
    But the reason they can't is that the member states wanted to reserve more power for themselves and defend their national roles. The Commission makes legislation proposals and the Commissioners are picked by the national governments. The EU Parliament shares the job of accepting or rejecting them with the Council, which also represents national governments. It's precisely because national governments don't want more power to be vested in the EU that they block attempts to give the EU Parliament more control of legislation. I agree that's a bad situation - it would make the whole thing much stronger and more democratic if the EU Parliament was supreme.

    The current situation is a result of national state members deliberately keeping the EU weak. That's also why they appointed a nobody as EU President. Which is also why the EU looks helpless in the teeth of a real crisis like the current one. You get the leadership you want.
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    Cameron's renegotiations only bring the UK minor changes which don't go far enough IMO and this so called 'special status' is just pathetic. If Cameron were to get a better negotiation then the minor changes he could only get after long talks in Brussels, I would be reconsidering my position in the EU referendum debate even though I can't vote. Presently, I'm still in support of #Brexit and support the Grassroot Out campaign.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Good points well made. :yep:

    It's nice to see the quality of people gathering together to recommend Brexit.



    The real question is, when you see the kinds of people who are urging us to leave, how can any serious person possibly be considering supporting them?


    I'm sorry but I just had to seek clarification re your post.

    You seem to agree that what Cameron is negotiating for will amount to very little?

    Yet you seem to mock those people who are intent on voting to exit?

    If you have time and I appreciate you may not I'd be intruiged to know your best argument for voting to stay in. Or perhaps even better your opinion of what will likely happen if we vote to come out?

    Thanks
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    (Original post by moggis)
    I'm sorry but I just had to seek clarification re your post.

    You seem to agree that what Cameron is negotiating for will amount to very little?

    Yet you seem to mock those people who are intent on voting to exit?

    If you have time and I appreciate you may not I'd be intruiged to know your best argument for voting to stay in. Or perhaps even better your opinion of what will likely happen if we vote to come out?

    Thanks
    The best argument for staying in is that most problems are now global and we need pan-national institutions more than ever to work on solving them collectively. The UK is already in many such bodies and we don't have an annual battle to remove ourselves from the UN or the World Bank, but because some Tories and right wingers wrongly think that their beloved Maggie hated the EU, we do over that institution.

    There are things wrong with the EU which we debate a lot, but without us in it, they won't get better. The long-running problem has been that the UK, to satisfy the small part of the domestic right wing that controls the media, has repeatedly not properly engaged in Europe. That leaves us in a limbo state. For example, we could, if we had been stronger in Europe, have taken more control of the way the Euro was developed and stopped it from being rolled out to every single country in the madcap way it was.

    I find the current posturing by Cameron to be utterly irrelevant and depressing as it is purely about seeing off that minority right wing threat from the headbangers in his own party and their friends and relations in UKIP, which is only a breakaway segment of the Tory Party anyway. It does nothing to address real issues and he is uninterested in real and lasting restructuring and reform, or if he is, he keeps it well hidden.
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    (Original post by moggis)
    Yet you seem to mock those people who are intent on voting to exit?
    I'm surprised you're surprised about FoS, that's how she argues!
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Good points well made. :yep:

    It's nice to see the quality of people gathering together to recommend Brexit.



    The real question is, when you see the kinds of people who are urging us to leave, how can any serious person possibly be considering supporting them?
    The enemy of my enemy is my friend. I hate the EU and if someone I hate like George Galloway hates them too, I will be more than happy to temporary align with him. There are few I wouldn't align with against the EU. I hate it's very existence, the fabric of it.Also it does not help when the in campaign has those I hate more than anyone. Cameron, Blair, Osbourne, Mandelson, Clegg and every god damn Blairite, elitist scum. Tell me how on earth you can expect me to support that?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The best argument for staying in is that most problems are now global and we need pan-national institutions more than ever to work on solving them collectively. The UK is already in many such bodies and we don't have an annual battle to remove ourselves from the UN or the World Bank, but because some Tories and right wingers wrongly think that their beloved Maggie hated the EU, we do over that institution.

    There are things wrong with the EU which we debate a lot, but without us in it, they won't get better. The long-running problem has been that the UK, to satisfy the small part of the domestic right wing that controls the media, has repeatedly not properly engaged in Europe. That leaves us in a limbo state. For example, we could, if we had been stronger in Europe, have taken more control of the way the Euro was developed and stopped it from being rolled out to every single country in the madcap way it was.

    I find the current posturing by Cameron to be utterly irrelevant and depressing as it is purely about seeing off that minority right wing threat from the headbangers in his own party and their friends and relations in UKIP, which is only a breakaway segment of the Tory Party anyway. It does nothing to address real issues and he is uninterested in real and lasting restructuring and reform, or if he is, he keeps it well hidden.
    You are a disgrace to real progressive politics. The late Tony Benn was anti-EU all his life and the Labour Party left were once the key opponents. Now you stand in support of large corrupt corporations and TTIP. You people are a disgrace. No longer do Labour or the left stand for the working man and woman, and then you wonder why people are turning their backs on you.

    And don't even think about spouting **** about "staying in to get real reform". The EU has never reformed for the better so don't act like a naive 4 year old. The EU has one goal and that is it, treaty change is out of the question
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    Shame I won't get to vote. Just off by a couple months.
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    Cameron succeeds at convincing the British people that his failure is a success once again through careful PR. Having set out with embarrassingly low demands he has achieved even less. I think the best argument for remaining in the EU at the moment appears to be the fear of having an unchecked Cameron government, indeed if it happens I imagine John Major will run away from the circus a second time.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The best argument for staying in is that most problems are now global and we need pan-national institutions more than ever to work on solving them collectively. The UK is already in many such bodies and we don't have an annual battle to remove ourselves from the UN or the World Bank, but because some Tories and right wingers wrongly think that their beloved Maggie hated the EU, we do over that institution.

    There are things wrong with the EU which we debate a lot, but without us in it, they won't get better. The long-running problem has been that the UK, to satisfy the small part of the domestic right wing that controls the media, has repeatedly not properly engaged in Europe. That leaves us in a limbo state. For example, we could, if we had been stronger in Europe, have taken more control of the way the Euro was developed and stopped it from being rolled out to every single country in the madcap way it was.

    I think your understanding of the European issue is very shallow. It was originally the Labour party which opposed membership of the European Common Market fearing it would be used against the interests of British workers. Even the right wing Labour member Hugh Gaitskell who has done so much to influence the late Tony Blair had came out in opposition. It was hard left members like Foot and Benn who have been most opposed, and it is hard left members who are most opposed to deals like TTIP now.

    As for the euro it is weaker than sterling, if the EU cannot even put together a stable currency what makes you think it is suitable to solve global problems?
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    (Original post by TheHelpfulMan)
    If cameron can close the border at the uks leisure i will be happy to stay
    The border is closed now, we're not in Schengen - unless you count the mini-Schengen we're in with the Republic of Ireland. Any member of the EU can close it's borders at any time - it's in the treaties.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    As for the euro it is weaker than sterling, if the EU cannot even put together a stable currency what makes you think it is suitable to solve global problems?
    Take a look at the euro against the USD and then GBP against USD and you'll see that the euro is no more volatile in the market than the pound.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    I think your understanding of the European issue is very shallow. It was originally the Labour party which opposed membership of the European Common Market fearing it would be used against the interests of British workers. Even the right wing Labour member Hugh Gaitskell who has done so much to influence the late Tony Blair had came out in opposition. It was hard left members like Foot and Benn who have been most opposed, and it is hard left members who are most opposed to deals like TTIP now.

    As for the euro it is weaker than sterling, if the EU cannot even put together a stable currency what makes you think it is suitable to solve global problems?
    Of course I know the history of it - but that was then, this is now. You do realise that it mainly the Left and progressives who are in favour of remaining in the EU now? At least as far as national political movements go. So what difference does it make that some on the Left used to be opposed and a smaller number still are?

    The Bennite Left used to be opposed by the way mainly because they thought that the EU was an American plot to ensure that capitalism was firmly entrenched. That was probably true, at least insofar as it was an anti-Soviet instrument when viewed from Washington. What changed was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent reshaping of the political map. Brussels gradually came to be seen by the Right as a defender of socially conscious policies and particularly of big government. Benn was left looking very out of date after the 80s.

    I already said that the Euro has been nonsensically applied, but that isn't an argument for Brexit as such, it's an argument for staying out of the Euro, which it's completely obvious we will and for getting it restructured, which is completely obviously needed. The can-kicking that's gone on over the Euro is bound to end at some point and the whole daft experiment of extending it wildly to poorer states will end badly. That's another argument that the EU needs drastic reform.

    What annoys me are the constant whiny counsels of despair and defeatism over it. Why are British people so often so lacking in self-confidence? Others in the EU still want our input - it's only our political and media class that lack the will to supply it apparently. :sad:

    The whole Brexit debate is reactionary, foolish, muddled and wrong headed.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    The border is closed now, we're not in Schengen - unless you count the mini-Schengen we're in with the Republic of Ireland. Any member of the EU can close it's borders at any time - it's in the treaties.
    Schengen only prevents the need for a passport. People all over Europe can still get into the uk if they have an EU passport. Schengen makes no difference. Stop acting like Cameron and using these smoke and mirror tactics. We still have an open border
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course I know the history of it - but that was then, this is now. You do realise that it mainly the Left and progressives who are in favour of remaining in the EU now? At least as far as national political movements go. So what difference does it make that some on the Left used to be opposed and a smaller number still are?

    The Bennite Left used to be opposed by the way mainly because they thought that the EU was an American plot to ensure that capitalism was firmly entrenched. That was probably true, at least insofar as it was an anti-Soviet instrument when viewed from Washington. What changed was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent reshaping of the political map. Brussels gradually came to be seen by the Right as a defender of socially conscious policies and particularly of big government. Benn was left looking very out of date after the 80s.

    I already said that the Euro has been nonsensically applied, but that isn't an argument for Brexit as such, it's an argument for staying out of the Euro, which it's completely obvious we will and for getting it restructured, which is completely obviously needed. The can-kicking that's gone on over the Euro is bound to end at some point and the whole daft experiment of extending it wildly to poorer states will end badly. That's another argument that the EU needs drastic reform.

    What annoys me are the constant whiny counsels of despair and defeatism over it. Why are British people so often so lacking in self-confidence? Others in the EU still want our input - it's only our political and media class that lack the will to supply it apparently. :sad:

    The whole Brexit debate is reactionary, foolish, muddled and wrong headed.
    People like you claim the UK can not stand on its own two feet outside the EU. Only the left and liberals believe the UK is a useless good for nothing country. You have no faith in this country. You think we are all a joke. Then you have the cheek to insult Brexit supporters for actually believing the UK can be prosperous.

    I must say the modern times of the political left truly are astonishing. You apparently oppose fascism and intolerance but support Islam and claim it's a religion of peace. You apparently support equal rights but address rooms of forced gender separation. Apparently you are against big corporate monopolies but support the EU and therefore TTIP, EU tax avoidance, austerity and the whole EU corporate agenda. What is wrong with you people? You are the exact thing you claim to hate.
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    Voting out, there might be a chance for the UK to escape the disasters of the next financial crash if we get out quick, while the rest of Europe burns. schools full, the hospitals are flooded, I can't ****ing breathe when I walk in, jobs going to people who will work for nothing. Get out now!!! All this nonsense that we'll be alone, no business, it's nonsense. the whole world wants to live here
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    (Original post by interact)
    Voting out, there might be a chance for the UK to escape the disasters of the next financial crash if we get out quick, while the rest of Europe burns. schools full, the hospitals are flooded, I can't ****ing breathe when I walk in, jobs going to people who will work for nothing. Get out now!!! All this nonsense that we'll be alone, no business, it's nonsense. the whole world wants to live here
    According to the EU commission, if we leave it could begin the decline of the EU. They actually think that will win support for them. If only they knew the satisfaction we get from watching the EU burn. To see it fail and every pro-EU supporter suffer along with it, is far greater than any other political event I could ever witness.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    Schengen only prevents the need for a passport. People all over Europe can still get into the uk if they have an EU passport. Schengen makes no difference. Stop acting like Cameron and using these smoke and mirror tactics. We still have an open border
    Um, guess what, people from all over the world can get into the UK with a valid passport. That's not smoke and mirrors, that's the fact of the matter. Additionally, I haven't looked recently (ie in the last 12 months) but it's certainly the case that the number of legal immigrants from outside the EU is substantially larger than that from within the EU, and that doesn't even include illegal immigrants.

    Net migration of EU citizens showed a statistically significant increase to 180,000 (up 42,000 from YE June 2014). Non-EU net migration also had a statistically significant increase, to 201,000 (up 36,000).
    This is from the latest ONS stats at http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migrat...mber-2015.html

    ie 53% of immigrants are from outside the EU.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    According to the EU commission, if we leave it could begin the decline of the EU. They actually think that will win support for them. If only they knew the satisfaction we get from watching the EU burn. To see it fail and every pro-EU supporter suffer along with it, is far greater than any other political event I could ever witness.
    This is probably the most moronic post I have ever seen. Even if the UK were out of the EU what do you think that collapse of the EU would do to the economies of the remaining member states? And following from that, do you really think that the UK would be immune from chaos in the EU.

    Whatever you might wish, and it's a very spiteful wish, your dream is never going to come true - simply because the stakes for all of the member states are far too high. People like you have been talking about the collapse of the euro for 15 years - hasn't happened yet, and won't happen.

    How about trying some positive arguments about why the UK should leave? Let me tell you those arguments don't start with the "safe choice" mantra I've heard on the TV this afternoon.
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    (Original post by interact)
    Voting out, there might be a chance for the UK to escape the disasters of the next financial crash if we get out quick, while the rest of Europe burns. schools full, the hospitals are flooded, I can't ****ing breathe when I walk in, jobs going to people who will work for nothing. Get out now!!! All this nonsense that we'll be alone, no business, it's nonsense. the whole world wants to live here
    Here's a clue: the last financial crash started in the USA. Probably the one before that did too, and the one before that…
 
 
 
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