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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    * * *

    That's a big difference, in my opinion. Lying about attending one day of placement is utterly trivial, in my opinion. People, including medical students and doctors, tell trivial lies all the time.

    When I'm a consultant, I couldn't live with myself if I made a student repeat a year over something so minor.

    I also think that some people from a non medical background replying to this thread perhaps don't realise that attendance on a medical student placement tends to be flexible and not too strictly enforced.*
    Agree with you; isn't the entire point of attendance monitoring to track over time? By all means give the student a *******ing and make clear that a repeat will result in serious penalty, but making them resit the year for the sake of one missed sessions seems disproportionate beyond belief.
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    * * *

    That's a big difference, in my opinion. Lying about attending one day of placement is utterly trivial, in my opinion. People, including medical students and doctors, tell trivial lies all the time.

    When I'm a consultant, I couldn't live with myself if I made a student repeat a year over something so minor.
    The incident itself was minor, but the principle involved was anything but.You might think it's trivial, clearly the medical school concerned did not agree, and nor do I.

    I also think that some people from a non medical background replying to this thread perhaps don't realise that attendance on a medical student placement tends to be flexible and not too strictly enforced.*
    That may be your experience, but clearly it's not the OP's.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I'm with the totally disproportionate crowd.

    I think at least half my year would be repeating if all that was required was lack of attendance and subsequent lying about why when asked on the spot.

    I suspect OP had not disclosed all the details.
    He did indicate that there had been attendance issues before, at least.

    (Original post by nexttime)
    That sounds pretty bad sure, but you've invested so much to educate this person at this stage. Being actually struck off requires a LOT - remember that there are practicing Drs out there on the sex offenders register, who have committed violent crimes etc.

    I don't know what your elective was like but we didn't even have a sign off or any formal requirements, except it being a healthcare setting for a certain time period. What is described doesn't sound unusual for me (except the forgery bit).
    Clearly there is some variation between medical schools.

    (Original post by MJK91)
    Agree with you; isn't the entire point of attendance monitoring to track over time? By all means give the student a *******ing and make clear that a repeat will result in serious penalty, but making them resit the year for the sake of one missed sessions seems disproportionate beyond belief.
    The issue is less about the missed session and much more about the fact that the OP lied about what he'd done. He also made it clear in his original post, I think it was, that there had been attendance issues before.
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    Thanks for the update OP. I read this when you posted it and thought you were feeling unnecessarily worried.

    I can understand the issues relating to probity and attendance. But you being a 5th year student, anything other than a stern word or telling off, even a warning after FtP proceedings, seems so disproportionate!

    I'm glad you weren't excluded for this. I'm shocked that you've had to retake the final year! And it seems like just going through the motions if they're not even going to make you re-do the exams!

    I know some people above feel it's not disproportionate, fair enough. But I'm still so shocked reading your post I had to read it twice! I just can't see how such a trivial lie on missing one day can lead to this!

    Quick question re what MonteCristo posted about declaring. Obviously it'll need to be declared to the GMC when it comes to provisional registration. They clearly ask about Med School FtP proceedings. But is it something that would need to be declared to employers in future job apps? Even though it's not a publicly shown/known FtP decision? It wouldn't be under your name in the GMC LRMP would it? I'm not saying hide it or anything! Just whether you need to declare Med School FtP's after you've already told the GMC... Just curious...

    Anyway, good luck with the rest of the final final year. Hope all goes well
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Are you having a laugh? Medical student attendance on a ward is completely different to doctors' attendance. Doctors have to be there to do their job. Medical students are meant to be doing private study etc as well. In final year of uni, it was completely normal for medical students to not go in certain days, or only go in for a couple of hours.
    what are the actual rules though ?

    every other Student Health Professional is monitored on the number of hours they attend placement as it is a Statutory requirement to do so , underpinned by UK and EU/ international law ...
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    (Original post by JayAhm)
    But is it something that would need to be declared to employers in future job apps? Even though it's not a publicly shown/known FtP decision? It wouldn't be under your name in the GMC LRMP would it? I'm not saying hide it or anything! Just whether you need to declare Med School FtP's after you've already told the GMC... Just curious...
    The OP doesn't have to proactively inform future employers but should never be tempted to tick a box that says "I have never been subject to FtP sanctions" or "I have not been under investigation by any disciplinary authority within the last X years" etc.

    I'm sure it varies but many/most employment processes will include a form along these lines. It might well happen at the CRB and occupational health stage (i.e. after selection has been completed) but could also appear at an earlier stage. Looking through online MPTS decisions, lots of doctors fall into the trap of trying to be slippery when it comes to answering these questions (e.g. "it was medical school FtP so didn't count") but that's a dangerous game to play.

    It probably won't have a big (if any) impact on the OP's career as long as he/she doesn't fall into this trap.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    what are the actual rules though ?

    every other Student Health Professional is monitored on the number of hours they attend placement as it is a Statutory requirement to do so , underpinned by UK and EU/ international law ...
    The rules are that you have to meet the requirements of your med school. Which are in turn approved by the GMC.

    The fact is, a nurse is expected to always be there to respond to anything that may happen. A doctor can leave the ward and do other things. The same standard is applied to med students - you don't have to be there for strict hours outside of on calls as the role of a doctor is not to stand around waiting for something to happen - its to be an academic professional and everything that involves including, y'know, learning stuff from the literature and ****.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    The rules are that you have to meet the requirements of your med school. Which are in turn approved by the GMC.

    The fact is, a nurse is expected to always be there to respond to anything that may happen. A doctor can leave the ward and do other things. The same standard is applied to med students - you don't have to be there for strict hours outside of on calls as the role of a doctor is not to stand around waiting for something to happen - its to be an academic professional and everything that involves including, y'know, learning stuff from the literature and ****.
    in addition to your condescendingly arrogant ( and rather offthe beam of the realities of modern clinical practice ) reference to the requirements of academe and various Health Professions ;
    you are condoning people swanning off and doing their own things , rather than working within the constraints and requirements of their role ... ?

    this is not the 1970s where 'ward 13' was an acceptable place for junior doctors to lurk ...
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    so you are condoning people swanning off and doingtheir own things , rather than working within the constraints and requiremewnts of their role ...

    this is not the 1970s where 'ward13' was an acceptable place for junior docotrs to lurk ...
    I feel I'm living in some sort of parallel universe here... At medical school, it's entirely normal for the medical students to turn up to something like 3 ward rounds per week on their "allocated ward", and spend the rest of their time doing private study, taking history from interesting patients on other wards etc. It's not a rigid 9-5 thing like a job is. Now, when you're actually a qualified doctor, it's completely different of course.
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    It's generally accepted that medical students will not always be physically present in one particular place.*

    When I was at medical school I spent 8 weeks attached to a respiratory physician who predominantly saw patients with sleep apnoea and another 8 with an orthopaedic surgeon who predominantly saw patients with patellofemoral osteoarthritis. No-one in the medical school (if pushed) would have insisted that I sit through 8 weeks of sleep apnoea clinics. Medical students are obliged to attend whatever is necessary to pass their exams and be safe as a doctor on qualification. They do not have a specific role on the team (and patients/colleagues relying upon them), which appears to be the model used by many nursing courses.

    That said, medical students are expected to be around enough and it sounds as if the OP's consultant was already concerned about his/her attendance.*However, the OP really became unstuck by lying, not because he/she failed to appear in the hospital on any given day.*
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    Thanks for the update OP. Seems a harsh punishment, but at least you have got on with it. Not sure we got the full picture, but the lie becomes more important than the actual thing you missed. Hope everything else goes smoothly.

    Btw as i read the whole thread a big contrast from what a lot of people were saying would happen.
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    (Original post by MonteCristo)
    However, the OP really became unstuck by lying, not because he/she failed to appear in the hospital on any given day.
    Yup, this. Couple of tangents going on. Whether it was compulsory or not, I don't think it would/should make a difference, as the whole point is that they're being disciplined for the lie that was told saying that they'd attended. Whether the OP had to be in or not isn't really the point. I'd guess that if the OP had skipped the day and just said that he didn't go in/wasn't feeling well/couldn't be bothered, that would've been less of a big deal.

    As 999tigger said, the lie becomes more important than the actual thing! The amount of suspensions you read about from MPTS hearings due to trivial little lies told is quite surprising. The thing itself seems so insignificant but the lying is what they hate.

    OP was definitely wrong to lie. And I think knows that he/she was! But I still think redoing the final year is unbelievably harsh for the 'crime' committed.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    in addition to your condescendingly arrogant ( and rather offthe beam of the realities of modern clinical practice ) reference to the requirements of academe and various Health Professions ;
    I was quite drunk when i wrote that BUT...

    They are highly trained professionals who do a great job, sorry if I didn't specifically mention that. However, what I as referring to IS a real difference - medical training involves a lot more library time and academic examinations than, say, nurses, who have a higher proportion of on the job shift-based training. I'm not sure why that's controversial?


    you are condoning people swanning off and doing their own things , rather than working within the constraints and requirements of their role ... ?

    this is not the 1970s where 'ward 13' was an acceptable place for junior doctors to lurk ...
    Your a former nurse now med student (or doctor?) right? So surely, surely, you realise that in addition to looking after a ward, doctors are also expected to: perform audits, perform research, pass exams, compete internal training, attend teaching, attend supervisor meetings, teach med students, compete eportfolios etc etc. All this is expected to be done during hours. 'Ward 13', as you put it, is a vital part of the job, and as long as you are easily contactable there is nothing wrong with going off ward.

    I really don't understand what you're getting at here. If the ward is quiet and all jobs done then there is no requirement or expectation for a doctor, or med student, to still physically be there.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    in addition to your condescendingly arrogant ( and rather offthe beam of the realities of modern clinical practice ) reference to the requirements of academe and various Health Professions ;
    you are condoning people swanning off and doing their own things , rather than working within the constraints and requirements of their role ... ?

    this is not the 1970s where 'ward 13' was an acceptable place for junior doctors to lurk ...
    You are literally the most uptight person on this forum. I've never known anyone to get such a boner over rules and regulations.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    <snip> So surely, surely, you realise that in addition to looking after a ward, doctors are also expected to: perform audits, perform research, pass exams, compete internal training, attend teaching, attend supervisor meetings, teach med students, compete eportfolios etc etc.
    And other Health Professionals don't ? Generally when you have dug a hole it's wise to stop digging , least the sides cave in on you.

    (Original post by nexttime)
    All this is expected to be done during hours. 'Ward 13', as you put it, is a vital part of the job, and as long as you are easily contactable there is nothing wrong with going off ward.
    so you advocate the consumption of intoxicants when on-duty / on-call ?

    (Original post by nexttime)

    I really don't understand what you're getting at here. If the ward is quiet and all jobs done then there is no requirement or expectation for a doctor, or med student, to still physically be there.
    show me a clinical area where 'all jobs are done' ... or perhaps the hours Nursing and AHP staff spend chasing junior medical staff to complete things which they (junior medical staff) are supposed to complete ...

    never mind the level of hand-holding of Junior Doctors that has become the norm ... and of course the fact that Nursing staff are disciplined on a regular basis for not ensuring that Junior Doctors do their jobs ...
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    And other Health Professionals don't ? Generally when you have dug a hole it's wise to stop digging , least the sides cave in on you.
    Sometimes, but nowhere near as much no. The role is different. You know that, stop pretending otherwise.

    show me a clinical area where 'all jobs are done' ... or perhaps the hours Nursing and AHP staff spend chasing junior medical staff to complete things which they (junior medical staff) are supposed to complete ...

    never mind the level of hand-holding of Junior Doctors that has become the norm ... and of course the fact that Nursing staff are disciplined on a regular basis for not ensuring that Junior Doctors do their jobs ...
    Rant over? Sorry that you've had jobs where the juniors are busy. But, in theory at least, that off-the-ward work is just as much their job as signing TTAs. They are, after all, trainees. Their main role should be to learn not do menial form filing 100% of the time. The fact that so many hospitals are understaffed making this virtually impossible is not their fault.

    We should also not only talk about juniors here. Med students are, after all, future consultants first and foremost. Are they allowed to leave the ward?

    As it happens, I have had plenty of jobs where it's possible to do ask the ward jobs by 2-3, tell the nurses you have your bleep if needed and go to do your other duties.

    Bringing it back to relevance, yes doctors can and should leave the ward if they have time. Again, can't believe you're disputing this?
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    <snip>

    Bringing it back to relevance, yes doctors can and should leave the ward if they have time. Again, can't believe you're disputing this?
    i cannot believe you are supprting junior medical staff being unavailable ( bercasue they've cleared off somewhere) and/ or in the pub while on duty ...
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    (Original post by MonteCristo)
    It's generally accepted that medical students will not always be physically present in one particular place.*

    When I was at medical school I spent 8 weeks attached to a respiratory physician who predominantly saw patients with sleep apnoea and another 8 with an orthopaedic surgeon who predominantly saw patients with patellofemoral osteoarthritis. No-one in the medical school (if pushed) would have insisted that I sit through 8 weeks of sleep apnoea clinics. Medical students are obliged to attend whatever is necessary to pass their exams and be safe as a doctor on qualification. They do not have a specific role on the team (and patients/colleagues relying upon them), which appears to be the model used by many nursing courses.

    That said, medical students are expected to be around enough and it sounds as if the OP's consultant was already concerned about his/her attendance.*However, the OP really became unstuck by lying, not because he/she failed to appear in the hospital on any given day.*
    however i suspect you communicated to those Consultants where (ish) and what you would be doing with that time -

    I suspect you are correct about the OP's situation ( or something along those lines) ... it is very easy for some medical students and to sone extent junior Doctors to slack off especially if they are not managed with a degree of pro-active oversight...
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    i cannot believe you are supprting junior medical staff being unavailable ( bercasue they've cleared off somewhere) and/ or in the pub while on duty ...
    Could you quote where nexttime advocated drinking on shift? I can't see that anywhere...

    You are being unbelievably uptight and pedantic. There is no way you can equate the out-of-hours requirements of other healthcare professionals to those of junior doctors. It's not even close.

    It shouldn't be up to a consultant, reg, F1/F2, nurse, HCA, medical school to dictate precisely how one spends their hours working – if it were, we'd all fail as we'd never tick everything off the list. We'd be experts at ~ 3 surgeries and taking bloods, and that'd be about it. It is fine to go off and read; it is not fine to lie about being where you're not. Quite simple really.
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    It is fine to go off and read; it is not fine to lie about being where you're not. Quite simple really.
    Perfect summary

    Relatedly, I can't even count the number of times I have been told to go home by ward staff. Especially if I stay past about 4 o'clock - everyone seems to want you to leave for the sake of their own sanity. I think they find looking at keen students depressing
 
 
 
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