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Muslim Girl on the train Watch

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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    Here you seem to have conflated the past and the present. If women nowadays have access to similar wages and job opportunities as men - as you have just said, and as I myself believe - then a system in which they are permanently financially dependent on their closest male kin has become unnecessary, hasn't it?



    Mandating a smaller inheritance for women clearly restricts their ability to provide for themselves and damages their financial security.



    How can you posit that men have a greater ability to make money and provide for themselves and their families, and then reach the conclusion that they should inherit more money to somehow compensate?

    You're trying to paint a picture of a society that exhorts men to support their female family members, and that's all well and good, but what I see is a system that limits the opportunities available to women and ensures that they will always need that support.

    In a perfect world, where people always care for those who need their care, this system might even work - except, of course, that the women involved will always live less happy and fulfilled lives because they are less able to choose what path their lives take. What worries me, though, is that people are not perfect. What happens when a man shirks his supposed duty to the women in his family? Those women will not be able to work because society expects them not to, they are not provided for, and they have no inheritance to fall back on in the meantime - they are in serious financial trouble!

    I agree with a lot of your comments; however I don't think Islam itself promotes such dependency. Such attitudes concerning women (lack of education, job diversity, financial dependency, dowries) were common across countries, even in the western world until the turn of the 20th century and are still the norm in other non-Islamic countries. Religious texts can easily be taken out of context or are open to interpretation depending on who reads it e.g. I've heard the same passages in the bible/tanakh be used to support opposing views by different people
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    [QUOTE=Reformed;63753763]so what you are saying is.... islam as a means to make law, is relevant only to a society of the 8th century, not the 21st. wow, thats some shocking revelations[/QU

    the qur'an was sent for all of mankind, it was suitable for the conditions in the 8th century and is still suitable in the 21st century. as i have previously mentioned, there is no restriction on a woman working to earn a living. the double inheritance and obligation on men is to ensure the financial security of women. now you can argue that women have more or less equal opportunities to provide for themselves now, but that would only apply to some parts of western societies, but in the vast majority of the world, women still do not have the same opportunities as men and islam caters to the need of everyone, not just certain individuals. sure some women in the west might not need other males to help them financially, but there are still many women in other parts of the world that do. so if islam didn't pass that law on inheritance, although it may not have a negative impact on some individuals in the west, it would have an impact on other individuals around the world, which outnumber those not affected. islam looks for the greater good of a community, not just for certain individuals
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    Here you seem to have conflated the past and the present. If women nowadays have access to similar wages and job opportunities as men - as you have just said, and as I myself believe - then a system in which they are permanently financially dependent on their closest male kin has become unnecessary, hasn't it?



    Mandating a smaller inheritance for women clearly restricts their ability to provide for themselves and damages their financial security.



    How can you posit that men have a greater ability to make money and provide for themselves and their families, and then reach the conclusion that they should inherit more money to somehow compensate?

    You're trying to paint a picture of a society that exhorts men to support their female family members, and that's all well and good, but what I see is a system that limits the opportunities available to women and ensures that they will always need that support.

    In a perfect world, where people always care for those who need their care, this system might even work - except, of course, that the women involved will always live less happy and fulfilled lives because they are less able to choose what path their lives take. What worries me, though, is that people are not perfect. What happens when a man shirks his supposed duty to the women in his family? Those women will not be able to work because society expects them not to, they are not provided for, and they have no inheritance to fall back on in the meantime - they are in serious financial trouble!
    not all women have equal opportunities, in fact, most women around the world don't, it's mostly in parts of the west where opportunities are more or less equal. so this system is still beneficial and necessary for most women around the world, and that's what islam seeks to do, achieve the greater good for the whole community i.e mankind and not just certain parts of a community i.e the west. and this system was made for all of mankind throughout time, so it was there to help women for the past 1400 years and today also. to villify it because it doesn't seem relevant in some parts of the world today, doesn't do justice to the fact that it helped women for the past 1400 years and continues to do so today in various parts of the planet.

    women inheriting less may seem as a disadvantage for them, but the fact that men are obligated to provide for them it protects them from an even bigger disadvantage, and as i said previously, islam seeks the greater good, on one side it may seem as a disadvantage, but it's there to prevent an even bigger one by ensuring that women are financially secure regardless of unequal opportunities or any other circumstances.

    the fact that men have a greater opportunity to earn money means that they are better able to provide. and because they have to provide for themselves, their wife and their unmarried sister(s) means that they require a larger inheritance

    women do have control over the path they take in life, they are allowed to earn a living themselves and her husband or brother are obligated to provide for her, so if she wishes to travel abroad and settle in a different country, she can, with the insurance that whatever path she takes, her male counterpart will help her financially. just because the male is providing for her does not mean he controls what she does

    of course this is not a perfect world and humans are not perfect, islam has set a system for mankind to follow, but there are always cases of injustices no matter what system is in place.
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    (Original post by ubaid97)
    so what you are saying is.... islam as a means to make law, is relevant only to a society of the 8th century, not the 21st. wow, thats some shocking revelations[/QU

    the qur'an was sent for all of mankind, it was suitable for the conditions in the 8th century and is still suitable in the 21st century. as i have previously mentioned, there is no restriction on a woman working to earn a living. the double inheritance and obligation on men is to ensure the financial security of women. now you can argue that women have more or less equal opportunities to provide for themselves now, but that would only apply to some parts of western societies, but in the vast majority of the world, women still do not have the same opportunities as men and islam caters to the need of everyone, not just certain individuals. sure some women in the west might not need other males to help them financially, but there are still many women in other parts of the world that do. so if islam didn't pass that law on inheritance, although it may not have a negative impact on some individuals in the west, it would have an impact on other individuals around the world, which outnumber those not affected. islam looks for the greater good of a community, not just for certain individuals
    so you are backtracking from essentially saying that islam is designed for the 8th century, to now saying its designed for the third world that houses most of the worlds muslim population.

    instead of again trying to work around the problems of 8th century/developing society as islam tries, why not follow the western plan of educating women, encouraging them to the workplace, to make their own financial plans, then the islamic edicts you describe wouldnt be needed at all, becuase society would be more equitable than it ever was under mohammed
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    (Original post by Reformed)
    so you are backtracking from essentially saying that islam is designed for the 8th century, to now saying its designed for the third world that houses most of the worlds muslim population.

    instead of again trying to work around the problems of 8th century/developing society as islam tries, why not follow the western plan of educating women, encouraging them to the workplace, to make their own financial plans, then the islamic edicts you describe wouldnt be needed at all, becuase society would be more equitable than it ever was under mohammed
    islam deos not need to follow the western plan, it has encouraged men and women alike to seek knowledge and gain education long before the west. islam does not restrict women from working, that is what you are not understanding, women are not forbidden from working. islam has just put in place a system where women who are not able to provide for themselves are insured with financial security. what you're stating is like saying that welfare benefits are bad because their purpose is to encourage people to stay unemployed. the purpose of welfare benefits is to help individuals who do not earn enough, it does not restrict people from earning enough, it merely aids those who do not. just like the system put in place by islam does not restrict women from working and earning fro themselves, it merely aids those who are not able to.
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    I remember you from the last time.
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    (Original post by datmofo)
    Okay thanks, I still don't understand the 3rd verse

    Quran (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them[women]"
    Men are a degree above them in terms of responsibility.
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    (Original post by datmofo)
    yes, but still don't get the 3rd quote.
    (Original post by datmofo)

    why are men 'above' women.


    You know in some relationships the woman wears the pants – in others, the man.

    What causes this wearing of pants? Physical strength? (not really) Intelligence? (maybe) Dominance? (yes, but how does it come about?) – it does not matter, you will know who wears the pants.

    For there to be a healthy marital relationship the man should be a degree higher (according to Islamic teachings). Notice it’s a degree higher not 10 not 100.

    Allah has commanded this and so does this web site
    http://www.themodernman.com/dating/relationships/who-should-wear-the-pants-in-a-relationship.html
    Most women want to know that the man is steering the ship and is clear on direction they are headed and how they are going to get there. A woman wants to support her man and help him achieve whatever it is that he wants for the two of them.
    And
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-play/201205/are-you-dominant-or-subordinate-in-your-romantic-relationship
    If neither individual is willing to take a subordinate role, every time conflicting interests arise or decisions need to be made, the relationship is potentially threatened. In the absence of a clear-cut dominance relationship to settle all the contests, the costs of continuous fighting or negotiation inevitably take their toll.

    These are observations made by psychologists that I doubt were influenced by religion but came to a similar conclusion.

    In short, all women are not inferior (for want of a better word) to men- all men are not inferior to women. There is a mix, find your partner on this 1degree of separation and you stand a better chance of a happy marital life.

    Personally I prefer my girl to be naked.
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    (Original post by ubaid97)
    islam deos not need to follow the western plan, it has encouraged men and women alike to seek knowledge and gain education long before the west. islam does not restrict women from working, that is what you are not understanding, women are not forbidden from working. islam has just put in place a system where women who are not able to provide for themselves are insured with financial security. what you're stating is like saying that welfare benefits are bad because their purpose is to encourage people to stay unemployed. the purpose of welfare benefits is to help individuals who do not earn enough, it does not restrict people from earning enough, it merely aids those who do not. just like the system put in place by islam does not restrict women from working and earning fro themselves, it merely aids those who are not able to.
    if the above is the case, can you explain why is it in the islamic societies of the past no women managed to rise the ranks to became political leaders or figures of major influence , separate from their husbands status. Whereas in most other non islamic societies this was fairly common place

    and can you also confirm where exactly in islam does the doctrine' encourage women to gain education'
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    queen rania is well educated woman and is a muslim and also have u seen two and half men i think i would not wanna be alan in western country specially if have worked i hard for it then some cheap tart takes every thing away from me , no body likes a gold digger either good love that rule
    who better knows than allah
 
 
 
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