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Young voters who want to stay in the EU must vote, or we will be out! Watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The overall poll is 43% Leave, 39% Remain, 18% undecided. More undecideds amongst the young voters as well.

    Overall, EU membership is a big net benefit to the UK. The immigration scare tactics are just that - scare tactics. The majority of EU immigrants into the UK are hard working people who boost our tax revenues and GDP, creating an overall bigger economy with more jobs for all of us.

    The Euro is in trouble and the EU economy on the continent is troubled, but neither are particularly influenced by us staying in our out.

    We should be moving towards a world free of the curse of nation states and their 18th and 19th century warmongering baggage and moving towards what we truly need - global cooperative action and organisation at every level. The EU isn't perfect of course, but it is an attempt to do that. We should stop whining and being pitiful and seek to modernise and improve it. We should stop listening to reactionaries like Nigel Farage and Ian Duncan Smith and their fellow travellers and liars like Boris who pretend to support them for private reasons. We should be moving forwards, not back to the 1950s.
    This is a terrible argument if you want to convince people to stay in the EU. Only a tiny number of hippie Green-party lunatics want this John Lennon Imagine world of no nation states. If Cameron came out with this as the reason for staying in the out voters would poll at 90%.

    The best argument for staying in the EU is that it subservient to the interests of nation states and improves our standing as a nation state.

    More generally, The idea that the UK being a nation state has been a cruse is so bafflingly stupid as to be incomprehensible.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    It's such a big benefit that it costs £50m per day, and even after rebates and spending by the EU on the UK (in effect adding a middle man to siphon off a bit of money) this figure is still over £23m. Even when you throw in the free trade and the EU's own estimates of what it adds to the economy, it is offset by the cost all the regulations that would no longer need to be enforced in their entirety by all businesses.We also hear no end of how we should improve the EU and how we can do it, if we can do it then how come even with the threat of leaving we couldn't get any changes of consequence even promised?
    Companies which have some business in the EU generally apply the same EU standards everywhere, as it is cheaper to simply abide by these regulations than to have 2 different standards of product or service. In this sense the EU's regulatory power has a global reach, and leaving the EU would not change the fact that every company which has any meaningful commerce in the EU will still have to follow these regulations.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Our people are becoming increasingly worse off due to outlanders taking all the jobs. Our government has a responsibility to ensure that Britons have a decent standard of living and must always put Britons first. The EU is undermining the government's ability and willingness to do that and as a result my people (the indigenous Britons) are suffering!

    I for one find this absolutely intolerable. My people are the natives of this land and therefore have a birthright to be given priority over the outlanders. We have a disproportionate amount of outlanders in grammar schools compared to natives, for example. This is completely unacceptable!

    Our leaders are weak and they've allowed the EU fat cats to trample all over us. Leaving the EU is the first step in reversing the damage done by outlanders interfering in the running of our country. My ancestors are probably rolling their graves right now at the depths our country has fallen to.

    Besides, the EU is dying anyway. It's besieged by legions of invading middle eastern barbarians who have no respect for western values and many other countries are looking to pull out of it. Hungary, the Czech Republic and Denmark are all talking about bailing as well as us. It's time we pulled out too before it drags us down further.
    It all makes sense now. Brexiters think they live in a Middle Earth like world and the EU are like the forces of Saruman.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWBQ4ndoypw
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I didn't say the debate started with Thatcher - I said that the current internal schism inside Tory MPs started with her, which is largely true, as the Powellite tendency was fairly marginal in the period you are talking about in mainstream Conservativism.

    I also referred to the right as a whole, not specifically to Tory MPs, although as you point out, leaving the EU is a minority view even amongst that particularly headbanging group. We should note that huge financial inputs into the selection and election of Tory MPs by leading anti-EU fanatic Lord Ashcroft (an offshored billionaire with a history of corrupt activity and numerous accusations against him) have also had a big effect.

    My point stands, which is that anti-EU fervour is a minority view in the UK, even on the right, but has had an unholy influence on policy due to the money and power of people like Ashcroft and other offshore types like Rupert Murdoch and Rothermere/Dacre, the people behind the Mail. They have their own private reasons for hating the EU. The latter for example continue to claim nondom status and are massive tax avoiders from that, despite numerous articles in the Eye showing that they mainly live in the UK with apparent complicity from the HMRC, doubtless under manipulation from right wing governmental forces.

    Then we have the scary loons of UKIP and their burning desire to return to the economy of the 1950s........
    I have just shown you how it isn't a minority position on the right. If you count the the number of Tory MPs (almost half) who want to leave and add that to the clear majority of Conservative Party members who want to leave and also take into account UKIP and its members then there is a clear majority for Brexit on the right.

    Secondly if Powell's influence was so marginal, how do you explain the fact that his support of the Labour Party in the 1974 election is credited with swinging many Conservative voters against the Tories in that election?
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    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Young voters should vote out and stop being brainwashed by corporate education. Less supply of workers = more jobs for you young Brits.

    You really think staying in the EU justifies a 70 to 1 application rate for graduate jobs? ermmmmmmm

    Does the EU create 70 more jobs per person? ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    VOTE OUT!

    Protect your future today. This is from a guy with a masters in economics.

    Even a small 50p increase in minimum wage = thousands more will come to the UK this year. Hence why we haven't had any wage increases for 20 odd years whilst everything else has got more expensive i.e education, housing etc
    (Original post by Bill_Gates)
    Young voters should vote out and stop being brainwashed by corporate education. Less supply of workers = more jobs for you young Brits.

    You really think staying in the EU justifies a 70 to 1 application rate for graduate jobs? ermmmmmmm

    Does the EU create 70 more jobs per person? ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    VOTE OUT!

    Protect your future today. This is from a guy with a masters in economics.

    Even a small 50p increase in minimum wage = thousands more will come to the UK this year. Hence why we haven't had any wage increases for 20 odd years whilst everything else has got more expensive i.e education, housing etc
    interesting... most economists say leaving will damage the economy due to less international competitiveness etc etc
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    (Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
    I have just shown you how it isn't a minority position on the right. If you count the the number of Tory MPs (almost half) who want to leave and add that to the clear majority of Conservative Party members who want to leave and also take into account UKIP and its members then there is a clear majority for Brexit on the right.

    Secondly if Powell's influence was so marginal, how do you explain the fact that his support of the Labour Party in the 1974 election is credited with swinging many Conservative voters against the Tories in that election?
    It was only credited by the right wing press with that. There was an excellent programme debunking it a few years back on BBC4, which showed that the idea that he had achieved that was wrong. There's also a lot about it in Sandbrook's excellent book on the period and he firmly puts Powell in his place.
    http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1298

    The Conservative Party is a rump of what it once was (as are all the three 'main' parties, although Labour is recovering its original membership somewhat of late) and no more represents the 'right' as a whole than anyone else. However, it is true that Murdoch and the Mail group have successfully propagandised their way to a referendum and even subverted once sensible parts of the media into not viewing it as a minority opinion.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It was only credited by the right wing press with that. There was an excellent programme debunking it a few years back on BBC4, which showed that the idea that he had achieved that was wrong.

    The Conservative Party is a rump of what it once was (as are all the three 'main' parties, although Labour is recovering its original membership somewhat of late) and no more represents the 'right' as a whole than anyone else. However, it is true that Murdoch and the Mail group have successfully propagandised their way to a referendum and even subverted once sensible parts of the media into not viewing it as a minority opinion.
    You are merely shifting the goal posts because you too afraid to concede that Brexit is the majority position on the right. I've just shown you how most people in the Conservative party support Brexit and I've mentioned UKIP and now you're trying to say that the Tories don't represent right-wing opinion in this country. You're simply making things up, to cover half-baked arguments. Together, the Tories and UKIP represent right-wing opinion in this country and overall they support Brexit: no other force on the right parallels their levels of support.

    As for your claim that Powell lacked influence in the outcome of the 1974 election, I'd rather trust the judgement of electoral experts rather than your claim, especially since you haven't provided the title of the programme:

    "It is worth noting, however, that there were unusually large swigns to Labour in Enoch Powell's former seat of Wolverhampton South West (16.6 per cent) and in other Wolverhampton seats (10.6 per cent in North, 7.7 per cent in South East) as well as in some other neighbouring constituencies, such as Staffordshire South West (11.4 per cent), Dudley East (11.4 per cent) and Wareley East (10.2 per cent) Even those who doubt that the 'Powell Factor' played a key role in the Tory victory of 1970 would be hard pressed to deny the electoral significance of his intervention in February 1974."

    Mark Garnett and David Denver, British General elections since 1964

    You would do better by showing some moral and intellectual humility by admitting that leaving the EU is a position that is carried by a significant proportion of people in this country, especially those on the right. I hope that isn't asking too much.
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    (Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
    You are merely shifting the goal posts because you too afraid to concede that Brexit is the majority position on the right. I've just shown you how most people in the Conservative party support Brexit and I've mentioned UKIP and now you're trying to say that the Tories don't represent right-wing opinion in this country. You're simply making things up, to cover half-baked arguments. Together, the Tories and UKIP represent right-wing opinion in this country and overall they support Brexit: no other force on the right parallels their levels of support.

    As for your claim that Powell lacked influence in the outcome of the 1974 election, I'd rather trust the judgement of electoral experts rather than your claim, especially since you haven't provided the title of the programme:

    "It is worth noting, however, that there were unusually large swigns to Labour in Enoch Powell's former seat of Wolverhampton South West (16.6 per cent) and in other Wolverhampton seats (10.6 per cent in North, 7.7 per cent in South East) as well as in some other neighbouring constituencies, such as Staffordshire South West (11.4 per cent), Dudley East (11.4 per cent) and Wareley East (10.2 per cent) Even those who doubt that the 'Powell Factor' played a key role in the Tory victory of 1970 would be hard pressed to deny the electoral significance of his intervention in February 1974."

    Mark Garnett and David Denver, British General elections since 1964

    You would do better by showing some moral and intellectual humility by admitting that leaving the EU is a position that is carried by a significant proportion of people in this country, especially those on the right. I hope that isn't asking too much.
    You said "his support of the Labour Party in the 1974 election is credited with swinging many Conservative voters against the Tories in that election?" - I took that to mean you were saying that Powell had a decisive role in tipping it for Labour. That was the view that was expressed in the right wing press at the time. Now you're admitting that his impact was a few thousand votes in the West Midlands. That's also what the book I referenced says. That isn't the same thing at all, is it?

    I don't think there's anything wrong with my argument that extreme anti-EU fervour is a minority thing in the right. Most Tory MPs do not support the sort of headbanging approach that people like Bill Cash take. Even the more recent converts like Gove stand out a bit as oddballs. There's clearly a difference here between 'Eurosceptic' and what I'm talking about, which is adamant Get Outism. The latter is as I say a minority view even amongst Tory MPs.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You said "his support of the Labour Party in the 1974 election is credited with swinging many Conservative voters against the Tories in that election?" - I took that to mean you were saying that Powell had a decisive role in tipping it for Labour. That was the view that was expressed in the right wing press at the time. Now you're admitting that his impact was a few thousand votes in the West Midlands. That's also what the book I referenced says. That isn't the same thing at all, is it?

    I don't think there's anything wrong with my argument that extreme anti-EU fervour is a minority thing in the right. Most Tory MPs do not support the sort of headbanging approach that people like Bill Cash take. Even the more recent converts like Gove stand out a bit as oddballs. There's clearly a difference here between 'Eurosceptic' and what I'm talking about, which is adamant Get Outism. The latter is as I say a minority view even amongst Tory MPs.
    My point on Powell is that his influence on Conservative politics was not 'marginal' as you claim. To prove that to you I mentioned his role in influencing the outcome of the 1974 general election. Powell obviously didn't win the election for Labour, Labour didn't win the election at all (it was a hung parliament). But he was a major factor in the Conservatives losing that election because he persuaded many Conservative voters not to vote for the Tories. If a single politician, who is not a member of the cabinet, can influence an election that way then he isn't a marginal influence now is he?

    "Although lots of Tory MPs are very vocal Outers, I think it's really a minority view even on the Right"--that was your original point. I then showed that most people on the Right clearly want to leave the European. You can try and weasel your way out it, it is clear from the evidence that exists that most people in the Conservatives and UKIP are adamantly opposed to our membership of the European Union. You have given no evidence refute that view.
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    (Original post by JIRAIYA-ERO-SENNIN)
    My point on Powell is that his influence on Conservative politics was not 'marginal' as you claim. To prove that to you I mentioned his role in influencing the outcome of the 1974 general election. Powell obviously didn't win the election for Labour, Labour didn't win the election at all (it was a hung parliament). But he was a major factor in the Conservatives losing that election because he persuaded many Conservative voters not to vote for the Tories. If a single politician, who is not a member of the cabinet, can influence an election that way then he isn't a marginal influence now is he?

    "Although lots of Tory MPs are very vocal Outers, I think it's really a minority view even on the Right"--that was your original point. I then showed that most people on the Right clearly want to leave the European. You can try and weasel your way out it, it is clear from the evidence that exists that most people in the Conservatives and UKIP are adamantly opposed to our membership of the European Union. You have given no evidence refute that view.
    It's actually very disputed that Powell was, as you know put it, "a major factor in the Conservatives losing that election". Consider for example the Robert Pearce biography of Powell (one of the best books about him), commented by Pearce in History Today. "What effect his advice had on the results of the February 1974 election is highly disputable".
    http://www.historytoday.com/robert-p...and-tory-party

    I think Pearce probably knows the subject better than you.

    I don't dispute that a lot of Tories are Eurosceptic. I do dispute that across the broader Right, or within the ranks of Tory MPs, there is a majority for outright withdrawal. The latter in particular are incoherent in many cases and a lot of Tory MPs appear to be fence sitting, waiting it out to see which way the referendum (and Cameron) goes.
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    Interesting article from the Telegraph site about why a leading Tory MP is in favour of staying in the EU.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ain-world.html
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    I will turn 18 in November. It makes me wish that they held the referendum then so I could have my say and vote OUT


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    I'm not even gonna to bother and vote what's the point
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    (Original post by karl pilkington)
    we are never leaving the EU the whole vote is just a con and waste of time
    Exactly it's already decided that's why I cba to vote
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's actually very disputed that Powell was, as you know put it, "a major factor in the Conservatives losing that election". Consider for example the Robert Pearce biography of Powell (one of the best books about him), commented by Pearce in History Today. "What effect his advice had on the results of the February 1974 election is highly disputable".
    http://www.historytoday.com/robert-p...and-tory-party

    I think Pearce probably knows the subject better than you.

    I don't dispute that a lot of Tories are Eurosceptic. I do dispute that across the broader Right, or within the ranks of Tory MPs, there is a majority for outright withdrawal. The latter in particular are incoherent in many cases and a lot of Tory MPs appear to be fence sitting, waiting it out to see which way the referendum (and Cameron) goes.
    You cited a biography of Enoch Powell that was quite equivocal on the matter, I cited the work of actual psephologists who studied the actual issue in depth: on that basis alone, let alone the other explanations about how Powell influenced the 1974, my contention is more credible than yours. You also omitted the rest of the quote,things look quite different when it is quoted in full: "What effect his advice had on the results of the February 1974 election is highly disputable, but there is a case to be made for Powell’s judgement that he himself was making the political weather: he put Heath into office in 1970 and took him out four years later." If that sounds like marginal influence to you then I have doubts about your command of the English language.

    Again, where is your evidence? where is your evidence to show that leaving is a minority position across the 'broader Right'? I've given you mine, I showed you a clear survey of Conservative party members, in addition to almost half of Tory MPs, I don't need to show any evidence with regards to UKIP because that is self-evident. If you don't see that as a clear sign of support for Brexit on the Right of the spectrum, then no amount evidence is going to convince you. So I will ask again, where your evidence to actually refute what I have just said?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Interesting polling released today. Although 53% of 18-34 age group want to stay in the EU, only half of us are prepared to vote. :sad:
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...s-brexit-leave

    This means in practise that the referendum result will be to leave the EU, unless we go out and vote.

    It's in our hands!

    Voting will be really easy. Take the card to the poll, or register for a postal. The latter takes 10 minutes. Make sure you are on the register as well.

    Can I register to vote?
    http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/registe...gister-to-vote

    Register to vote. (takes 5 minutes)
    https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote
    I don't understand how someone can be so feckless and not vote. It's fair enough if you are clueless or just don;t care either way, but to have an opinion but not vote just baffles me.
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    Vote OUT.

    The fact that the European court can over rule our own justice system, and the prime minister went around begging to try and secure changes to our own benefit system is humiliating.

    Freedom of movement in the EU wasn't as much if an issue when the countries in the EU were economically similar and had similar values but opening it up to poorer countries has led to an over supply of unskilled Labour.

    Besides this is it right that those with criminal records can come here? Did you ever get asked to vote for the EU commission that make our laws?

    If we vote to remain it will get worse. An ever closing union. A lot of people argue the EU gives us more rights but it shouldn't be like that. If you want to change something lobby the government of this country, vote for someone different, do something about it. Don't just sit on your backside and let the EU consume us for the sake of rights and legislation you have the power to lobby the government for.

    The idea of an EU army is horrible. If needed I would defend the country but not the political interests of an unelected, unaccountable EU, we will lose our national identity.

    Think before you vote. Vote OUT and make the changes you want yourself, or vote in and accept you or whatever government is in power will have limited say on the running of our country.

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    (Original post by cheese0110)
    Vote OUT.

    The fact that the European court can over rule our own justice system, and the prime minister went around begging to try and secure changes to our own benefit system is humiliating.

    Freedom of movement in the EU wasn't as much if an issue when the countries in the EU were economically similar and had similar values but opening it up to poorer countries has led to an over supply of unskilled Labour.

    Besides this is it right that those with criminal records can come here? Did you ever get asked to vote for the EU commission that make our laws?

    If we vote to remain it will get worse. An ever closing union. A lot of people argue the EU gives us more rights but it shouldn't be like that. If you want to change something lobby the government of this country, vote for someone different, do something about it. Don't just sit on your backside and let the EU consume us for the sake of rights and legislation you have the power to lobby the government for.

    The idea of an EU army is horrible. If needed I would defend the country but not the political interests of an unelected, unaccountable EU, we will lose our national identity.

    Think before you vote. Vote OUT and make the changes you want yourself, or vote in and accept you or whatever government is in power will have limited say on the running of our country.

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    Ffs the European Court which you mean does not 'rule over our justice system', thats the ECtHR which is a different, separate organisation.


    Stop lumping different organizations together.

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I work for a politics professor at a university in London.
    Very suspicious.
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    Let's hope they're kept from voting for as long as possible.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Very suspicious.
    Also we regularly stroke a white cat.
 
 
 
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