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    (Original post by Macy1998)
    I don't live in Poland or know anything about Poland so maybe Poland doesn't want abortions to be abused?

    Maybe its all about applying restrictions on abortions. I don't see anything wrong with banning abortion. Its a conversational issue that involves two lives. The biologic mother could also place her child on adoption, so its not a bleak aftermath.

    By the way, even the non believers that an all knowing God can disagree with abortion. Do people really need to have a faith of some kind to find abortion repulsive? Believe or not, even some atheists are prolife.
    Some women will have abortions regardless of their legality. If they cannot access safe, affordable abortions, they will have unsafe abortions and risk their lives and health in the process. Not something that you wish to happen, I'm sure.

    Abortion is an emotive issue. It is not something that is easily resolved. Adoption may not always be an option.

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    Abortion should only be legal if the woman's life is at risk. Otherwise its no better than murder.
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    (Original post by loveleest)
    I disagree with this so much. Women should be able to do whatever they please with their bodies.
    They can. But this isn't a matter of just "their bodies" is it? It's somebody elses body.
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    I don't see what the drama is. Ireland, Malta, Andorrra - they all have draconian abortion laws. Women just go to another country and have the procedure done there.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    They can. But this isn't a matter of just "their bodies" is it? It's somebody else's body.
    That, of course, depends on your definition of "somebody else," i.e., when human life begins. Until there is consensus about that, we're unlikely to get much agreement on the morality of the procedure.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I don't see what the drama is. Ireland, Malta, Andorrra - they all have draconian abortion laws. Women just go to another country and have the procedure done there.
    However many cannot afford to travel so have to rely on unsafe and illegal abortions.

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    (Original post by Camilli)
    That, of course, depends on your definition of "somebody else," i.e., when human life begins. Until there is consensus about that, we're unlikely to get much agreement on the morality of the procedure.
    United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted between 13 and 15 weeks, 4.2% between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks

    I don't know where you draw the line in the dirt but the above late term abortion statistics are from the US. In your opinion is a 20 week old fetus human life or not? What about 16 weeks? 12 weeks?

    I am not personally anti-abortion. But I do think there's a danger of oversimplifying this and making is a "woman's body" issue.
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    (Original post by Katty3)
    However many cannot afford to travel so have to rely on unsafe and illegal abortions.

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    I call BS on that.

    There are very few woman living in Poland that can't afford to make the short and affordable trip to any of a number of surrounding countries that will perform an abortion. This is Poland we're talking about; not Nepal.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I call BS on that.

    There are very few woman living in Poland that can't afford to make the short and affordable trip to any of a number of surrounding countries that will perform an abortion. This is Poland we're talking about; not Nepal.
    Actually, women do have unsafe and illegal abortions. It's not just the cost of taking a trip to a different country, it's the cost of having a safe medical abortion and the cost in terms of time off at work. Given that one of the leading reasons women choose to have abortions is because they are living in poverty, just telling women to travel is not a viable option.

    A woman in Ireland was recently prosecuted for buying pills to induce abortion on the Internet because she couldn't afford to travel to the UK. So yes, that argument does hold water, unless you are suggesting that no women in Poland would be in that position?

    It's not just the problem of travel, it's the problem of the social stigma that abortion carries in places like Poland. That means that they can't tell their friends and family, they can't talk to health professionals and they have broken the law by having an abortion so they are scared.

    Women who live in countries where abortion is illegal and find themselves in the position of needing one will access them. They just won't be safe. They may buy pills over the Internet and they could well be faulty or have an incorrect dosage or even bring the woman into the path of criminals.

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    (Original post by Howard)
    United States: In 2003, from data collected in those areas that sufficiently reported gestational age, it was found that 6.2% of abortions were conducted between 13 and 15 weeks, 4.2% between 16 and 20 weeks, and 1.4% at or after 21 weeks

    I don't know where you draw the line in the dirt but the above late term abortion statistics are from the US. In your opinion is a 20 week old fetus human life or not? What about 16 weeks? 12 weeks?

    I am not personally anti-abortion. But I do think there's a danger of oversimplifying this and making is a "woman's body" issue.
    Precisely my point. But until everyone agrees that a fertilized egg is human on the one hand, or that anything in the womb is not alive on the other, we're unlikely to get consensus.

    Which is why the Roe v. Wade framework makes the most sense to me. It accepts the ambiguity, and permits government (society?) to make some restrictions after some point, but leaves it in the doctor's office until then. That doesn't remove the moral risk, but it pushes the bulk of it to where it can be managed more reasonably.
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    (Original post by Camilli)
    Precisely my point. But until everyone agrees that a fertilized egg is human on the one hand, or that anything in the womb is not alive on the other, we're unlikely to get consensus.

    Which is why the Roe v. Wade framework makes the most sense to me. It accepts the ambiguity, and permits government (society?) to make some restrictions after some point, but leaves it in the doctor's office until then. That doesn't remove the moral risk, but it pushes the bulk of it to where it can be managed more reasonably.
    Fair comment.
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    (Original post by Katty3)
    Actually, women do have unsafe and illegal abortions. It's not just the cost of taking a trip to a different country, it's the cost of having a safe medical abortion and the cost in terms of time off at work. Given that one of the leading reasons women choose to have abortions is because they are living in poverty, just telling women to travel is not a viable option.

    A woman in Ireland was recently prosecuted for buying pills to induce abortion on the Internet because she couldn't afford to travel to the UK. So yes, that argument does hold water, unless you are suggesting that no women in Poland would be in that position?

    It's not just the problem of travel, it's the problem of the social stigma that abortion carries in places like Poland. That means that they can't tell their friends and family, they can't talk to health professionals and they have broken the law by having an abortion so they are scared.

    Women who live in countries where abortion is illegal and find themselves in the position of needing one will access them. They just won't be safe. They may buy pills over the Internet and they could well be faulty or have an incorrect dosage or even bring the woman into the path of criminals.

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    Well, let me challenge you to provide some statistics for Ireland, Malta, and Andorra. How many unsafe backstreet abortions were performed in these countries over the last five years? Very few I'd wager you.

    Not sure about your claims as to the social stigma of abortion in Poland either.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Well, let me challenge you to provide some statistics for Ireland, Malta, and Andorra. How many unsafe backstreet abortions were performed in these countries over the last five years? Very few I'd wager you.

    Not sure about your claims as to the social stigma of abortion in Poland either.
    Generally, a country doesn't try to ban abortion if there is no social stigma.

    I'm not sure about the statistics, but I bet a significant portion of women won't admit to having abortions if they are illegal.

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