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    (Original post by Dodgypirate)
    I don't give a ****.
    This nonchalence and plain stupidity is perhaps why you ended up at Keele.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    You don't know your history. Muslim slavery lasted much longer than white slavery, it WAS in the west (given the word slave comes from Europian Slav; ie Greeks etc).

    Yes Apartied was racist why would I argue that.
    Obviously it's true that Islamic slavery was a big thing and lasted a long time. (It's till going on sporadically in parts of the Islamic world and still seems to inform the behaviour of some Muslims from modernised Gulf states.)

    It's hard to compare barbarities, but it seems clear that the systematic work to death and severe cruelty meeted out to slaves on the plantations of the Americas by European slave owners was harsher, more industrialised and more indifferent to human welfare overall than that of the Arab world. Not all Arab slaves were treated decently, but domestic slavery in Arab families was not much like the massive colony exploitation of the cotton and sugar plantations. However, there are extreme cases in both.

    Anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    lol yeah money doesn't exist amirite
    There were undoubtedly monetary reasons for slavery. That is why we see black individuals such as William Ellison and Anthony Johnson who were also slave owners in America. But there was clearly some racial motivations that were used to justify and moralise slavery. Why for example did the majority of slaves come from Africa and not elsewhere? On what basis were the Jim Crow laws brought about? The fact is that if we look at the era when people were arguing for the abolition of slavery in America, we can see the racial motivations people held through the arguments they put forward in defence of slavery.

    For example, the Vice President of America John C. Calhoun, in defence of slavery stated:

    "Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually"
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    This nonchalence and plain stupidity is perhaps why you ended up at Keele.
    Why resort to personal insults?

    And FYI I'm not at Keele anymore... that was close to 4 years ago.
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    (Original post by Greenlaner)
    Like how whites (in particular the British) were the first race to abolish slavery, whilst every other non-white race continued to practice it, in some cases until very recently?
    Sorry.... We're saying that white people aren't racist because they stopped holding slaves before other groups? How about the fact that the society is built on white people enslaving others...

    For what it's worth, the US Constitution has not actually abolished slavery. The Thirteenth Amendment reads as follows: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

    Essentially, though we have protections against cruel and unusual punishment, we can still use slave labor. And there's a lot of racial bias in the criminal justice system. So you've got a giant cotton plantation in Louisiana where black people bend over and pick cotton all day while armed white people patrol on horseback.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    Okay, so you concede that point.

    Of course there were also racial motivations for the slave trade. However, those racial beliefs also held true when we went to great pains to END slavery. So therefore the slave trade wasn't inseparably linked to the slave trade.

    You need to prove a counterfactual theory that whites would not have enslaved blacks if racism were not present. Otherwise your assertion is just an unsubstantiated assertion. I don't know how you'd do that.

    Furthermore, I think it's obvious that anyone enslaving or conquering another race has beliefs of racial superiority, which gives humans the cognitive dissonance required to do these things. For example, the Roman's justifying their conquests in that they were bring civilisation to "barbarians"; there is nothing to support that racial prejudices were only a part of slavery in the transatlantic slave trade. There is no reason to think that only white people had those thought processes. And there is no reason to think that racism came before the economic incentive, rather than the other way around.
    Historians don't deal in 'what ifs'. We can only make judgements based on the values that actually existed at the time, and if we do that we can see that slavery was considered immoral, but with the sole exception of black people. Or, to quote Vice President Alexander Stephens, that slavery "is the natural and moral condition" of the black race. So, if these values did not exist, would they still have enslaved black people? Well, like I said, we shouldn't deal in 'what ifs', but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that if blacks were seen as equal to whites then the answer would be no, because by this point enslaving whites was considered wrong.

    None of this has any bearing on the actual point, which is that racism did exist, and that it was used to justify slavery, and that it continued to exist in a legal capacity long after abolition, and that the socioeconomic fallout is still felt today by the ancestors of slaves today - which is why it's still an issue close to peoples' hearts, and why it still gets brought up. "But what about the whites!" is just a gaping red-herring that distracts from the very really issues black Americans face today.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Obviously it's true that Islamic slavery was a big thing and lasted a long time. (It's till going on sporadically in parts of the Islamic world and still seems to inform the behaviour of some Muslims from modernised Gulf states.)

    It's hard to compare barbarities, but it seems clear that the systematic work to death and severe cruelty meeted out to slaves on the plantations of the Americas by European slave owners was harsher, more industrialised and more indifferent to human welfare overall than that of the Arab world. Not all Arab slaves were treated decently, but domestic slavery in Arab families was not much like the massive colony exploitation of the cotton and sugar plantations. However, there are extreme cases in both.

    Anyway, two wrongs don't make a right.
    Lies. The slaves in the Arab world were treated much worse. That is why do this day in Northern Africa and the Gulf that the "natives" are not white / black, the slaves were worked to death. In the Americas they were not worked to death as frequently. You seem to have some kind of racist agenda. Also, there were move slaves in the Arab world than in the Americas. #learnyourhistory.
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    (Original post by sjohnson98)
    Sorry.... We're saying that white people aren't racist because they stopped holding slaves before other groups? How about the fact that the society is built on white people enslaving others...
    As is Islamic society, yet you're not dissing them. In fact various Islamic groups still use slavery whereas no white groups do and white people were the first to abolish slavery, so how you can possibly justify demonizing us instead of cultures which still endorse slavery?
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    Oohhhh myyy goshhhh. The pure ignorance on this thread.
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    (Original post by The_Last_Melon)
    White lives matter because people say you can't even be racist against us despite being the most tolerant people in the world to other races except for maybe the Chinese and Thai people. So because we are so tolerant that excuses you to abuse us? I don't think so.
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAH HAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    Ok.
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    Lies. The slaves in the Arab world were treated much worse. That is why do this day in Northern Africa and the Gulf that the "natives" are not white / black, the slaves were worked to death. In the Americas they were not worked to death as frequently. You seem to have some kind of racist agenda. Also, there were move slaves in the Arab world than in the Americas. #learnyourhistory.
    I think the figures for total slavery in the Arab world often quoted are difficult to assess, there is a lot of hype in that area and not so much accurate demographic research.

    I said (which you ignored) that there was serious cruelty against slaves in both domains, my argument was that it was industrialised and systematic in the Americas whereas it was less so in the Arab world. I've based that view on years of reading books in the subject, we could go to sources but it will be tedious - suffice to say that in this area I've learned that there is a lot of hot air from Islamophobes on web forums claiming the Arabs were worse when in fact they were probably less oppressive overall, albeit marginally in some cases.

    The work to death system I mentioned was chiefly practised in British colonial plantations in places like Trinidad and in the Spanish-designed slave systems of Brazil - in both cases, for more than a century there was a built-in assumption that fresh slaves could always be found cheaply and that it was therefore more profitable to work slaves to death rapidly rather than look after them beyond the bare minimum. The policies evolved in both territories as slave economics changed and the supply of new slaves became more expensive and the crop picking more demanding and specialised.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    As is Islamic society, yet you're not dissing them. In fact various Islamic groups still use slavery whereas no white groups do and white people were the first to abolish slavery, so how you can possibly justify demonizing us instead of cultures which still endorse slavery?
    Personally, I live in the US and I'm referring to BLM here. I could go into the (lack of) ethics in clothing/technology manufacturing but I'm not going to do that. I'm just talking about BLM in Western cultures.
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    (Original post by Attempt)
    All Lives matter.Plain and simple.Black, white, purple, Hispanic, muslim, female, bisexual.Everyone.
    Imagine that you wake up late one night to the sound of your home being robbed.

    You dial 999.

    “999, what’s your emergency?”
    “Help!” you say. “My home is being robbed!”
    “Stay where you are,” the other voice says. “We’ll look into it.”
    “Thank you,” you say. “My address is—”
    “Woah,,” the voice on the other end says. “Why are you bringing addresses into this?”
    “What?” you say.
    “My home is being robbed! Aren’t you going to come and stop them?”
    “Well, I don’t know why you need to make this about your home,All houses matter.”

    There is a difference between something being true and something being relevant. *All houses do matter* But at the moment, it wasn’t relevant.

    It’s the same as you saying “All Lives Matter”It’s not that what your saying isn’t true. It’s just that it’s unhelpful. It’s an attempt to erase the real problems the movement is trying to address are being ignored.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Historians don't deal in 'what ifs'. We can only make judgements based on the values that actually existed at the time, and if we do that we can see that slavery was considered immoral, but with the sole exception of black people. Or, to quote Vice President Alexander Stephens, that slavery "is the natural and moral condition" of the black race. So, if these values did not exist, would they still have enslaved black people? Well, like I said, we shouldn't deal in 'what ifs', but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that if blacks were seen as equal to whites then the answer would be no, because by this point enslaving whites was considered wrong.

    None of this has any bearing on the actual point, which is that racism did exist, and that it was used to justify slavery, and that it continued to exist in a legal capacity long after abolition, and that the socioeconomic fallout is still felt today by the ancestors of slaves today - which is why it's still an issue close to peoples' hearts, and why it still gets brought up. "But what about the whites!" is just a gaping red-herring that distracts from the very really issues black Americans face today.
    Actually there's a whole branch of history called counter factual history. And historians dealing purely descriptively with what happened don't make claims like "this is the only way such and such state of affairs would have occurred given x other circumstances" like you were.

    Other than that..I can't even disagree with those obvious statements. But they don't justify the conclusion that talking about white lives shouldn't be done.

    Blacks don't have it bad as the media would have you believe. There is a lot of talk about the police just going around shooting blacks, but blacks commit 4x the violent crime (the type you'd think you'd get shot for) than whites, yet whites get shot Twice as much as every other race combined. I just can't reconcile that fact the the media's narrative. It stands against reason surely.

    And if i were to bring this up, I'd get "YOU R A WHITE MALE OPPRESSING ME WITH UR METANARRATIVE OVER MINE< FACTS ARE A WHITE MALE CONTRUCTIONS OPPRESSOR".

    And that's from the university professors.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    As is Islamic society, yet you're not dissing them. In fact various Islamic groups still use slavery whereas no white groups do and white people were the first to abolish slavery, so how you can possibly justify demonizing us instead of cultures which still endorse slavery?
    Please tell me you're not possibly saying just because white people abolished slavery that they're all good people?
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    (Original post by The_Last_Melon)
    White lives matter because people say you can't even be racist against us despite being the most tolerant people in the world to other races except for maybe the Chinese and Thai people. So because we are so tolerant that excuses you to abuse us? I don't think so.
    You've never been attacked by a black person.
    You've never been evicted by a black person.
    You've never had you're security deposit ripped off by a black landlord
    You've never had a black landlord.
    You've never had a black person deny you a job.
    You've never had a black person deny you a home or a flat
    You've never been pulled over by a black cop
    And you've never heard a black person say, "We're going to eliminate 100 jobs here - have a nice day!"

    I don't think that you're the only white person who can make these claims.

    Every mean word, every cruel act, every bit of pain and suffering in your life has had a white face attached to it.
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    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    You've never been attacked by a black person.
    You've never been evicted by a black person.
    You've never had you're security deposit ripped off by a black landlord
    You've never had a black landlord.
    You've never had a black person deny you a job.
    You've never had a black person deny you a home or a flat
    You've never been pulled over by a black cop
    And you've never heard a black person say, "We're going to eliminate 100 jobs here - have a nice day!"

    I don't think that you are the only white person who can make these claims.

    Every mean word, every cruel act, every bit of pain and suffering in your life has had a white face attached to it.
    it was only a matter of time before this guy turned up
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    it was only a matter of time before this guy turned up
    What I said is true and it's most likely true for you to.
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    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    What I said is true and it's most likely true for you to.
    I have been attacked by a black person.

    Not that it matters in the slightest which race your attacker is. I beat them up just the same
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    (Original post by Novascope)
    Please tell me you're not possibly saying just because white people abolished slavery that they're all good people?
    I'm not saying that no white people are racist, what I'm saying is that overall white people's society is actually the most tolerant of other cultures. I'm also pointing out that this "white people are all racists" hype has extremely bad double standards. Despite us having the most tolerant society and being the first to abolish slavery, we're the one's who're receiving the most racism from other ethnicities. Some Islamic societies still endorse slavery and was also built off of slavery (just as ours was partly built off of it) but because we're white, we're apparently the bad guys.

    How can anyone justify pointing fingers at us (who were the first to abolish slavery AND comprise the society that is the most tolerant of other cultures) and being racist towards us when we're the people who're working alongside them to eradicate racism?! It's absurd!
 
 
 
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