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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    I believe in free speech. I do not believe free speech includes the right to offend. This is why laws about discrimination and hate speech exist. You are acting like the world is being censored and people are being shut up. They are not and you know it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5PPdvSmKDI
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Bold 1: "Neither same-sex marriages nor civil unions of same-sex couples are allowed in Russia."
    "A couple can adopt children together, as a couple, only if they are a married heterosexual couple."
    "There have been notable objections to the organization of gay pride parades in several Russian cities, most prominently Moscow, where authorities have never approved a request to hold a gay pride rally. Former Moscow mayor Yuri Luzhkov supported the city's refusal to authorize the first two editions of Nikolay Alexeyev's Moscow Pride events, calling them as "satanic".
    "On 29 December 2014, Russia passed a road safety law, allowing the government to deny driver's licenses to those living confused in Gender Dysphoria categorized as Transgender by the World Health Organization, which listed transgenderism, fetishism, exhibitionism, and voyeurism as examples of sexual disorders."

    Bold 2: "A 2013 survey found that 84% of Russians said homosexuality should not be accepted by society (up from 60% in 2002), compared to 16% who said that homosexuality should be accepted by society. In a 2007 survey, 68% of Russians said homosexuality is always wrong (54%) or almost always wrong (14%). In a 2005 poll, 44% of Russians were in favor of making homosexual acts between consenting adults a criminal act; at the same time, 43% of Russians supported a legal ban on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In 2013, 16% of Russians surveyed said that gay people should be isolated from society, 22% said they should be forced to undergo treatment, and 5% said homosexuals should be "liquidated". In Russian psychiatry, Soviet mentality about homosexuality has endured into the present day. For instance, in spite of the removal of homosexuality from the nomenclature of mental disorders, 62.5% of 450 surveyed psychiatrists in the Rostov Region view it as an illness, and up to three quarters view it as immoral behavior. The psychiatrists sustain the objections to pride parades and the use of veiled schemes to lay off openly lesbian and gay persons from schools, child care centers, and other public institutions."
    (yes it's I'm using Wikipedia, but I'm not going to waste time summing up what has already been summed up; the sources are all in the article if you care)

    Bold 3: What even is "LGBT" propaganda? Does it try to convert people to LGBT? Well, LGBT isn't a choice so it's no that. Does it try to again acceptence for LGBT folk? Well that's certainly a good thing unless you're literal scum.
    What the Russian state sees it as is "non-traditional sexual relationships", which while in itself is stupid (LGBT isn't a choice), it's a such a nebulous term as to legitimise the oppresion of those open about their sexuality- "Under the statute it is effectively illegal to perform any of the following in the presence of minors: hold gay pride events, speak in favor of gay rights, or say that gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships". How is that not intolerence of homosexuality if the law is actively forcing it to be hidden ? Surely you're not that dense.

    General comments: Forcing LGBT "underground" DOES NOT make life better for anyone. Besides them constantly fearing for their wellbeing and having to supress their natural urges, this makes it an all-the-more-stronger taboo, which results in greater oppression and persection. Is there any example of a time where LGBTs were forced to supress themselves where homophobia and persecution of LGBT people wasn't rife, and didn't begin to lessen along with the supression?
    Allowing LGBTs to be open about themselves allows understanding, from which follows acceptance. Yes, there might be a transitionary period of unrest, but that's true of any change in society.
    There is nothing smart about oppression, ok?
    Personally I think Russia's come a very long way since the collapse of the USSR. Religious tolerance is pretty good, but yea I do agree that it's severely lacking on LGBT tolerance.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So you do believe in free speech but not free speech.
    Yet a further example of how little intellect you have.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Personally I don't think Putin was actually trying to do any of what you just said but it's fine, let's agree to disagree.
    Except he did, pal? **** me, you're all so deluded it's actually terrifying.
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    What even? Sign out, mate.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Personally I don't think Putin was actually trying to do any of what you just said but it's fine, let's agree to disagree.
    Got any proper counter to what I've posted apart from "I don't think so lol"?
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    I believe in free speech. I do not believe free speech includes the right to offend. This is why laws about discrimination and hate speech exist. You are acting like the world is being censored and people are being shut up. They are not and you know it.
    Ofc free speech includes the right to offend.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    I actually cannot believe the drivel you have been sucked in by. An opinion is one thing. We are all entitled to them. We can also all express them in a way that is not distasteful and racked with disapproval and hatred. You are ignoring all of the fine lines and distinctions which are made, even within the law, on these issues because it does not allow your argument to stand. You have no argument, leave it alone.
    So you just want to stop people expressing their views how they like using that would mean that nothing ever changes as the qay these views are expressed have helped shape politics in the past
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Yet a further example of how little intellect you have.
    How you have said free speech then went against free speech, it seems it is you who has little intellect
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Ofc free speech includes the right to offend.
    Again, I would argue it doesn't. It depends on what one means when they use 'offence'.


    (Original post by joecphillips)
    So you just want to stop people expressing their views how they like using that would mean that nothing ever changes as the qay these views are expressed have helped shape politics in the past
    Yes because this is the 21st Century and we live in democracies. You can't just do and say what you please. If you want that, go the **** back to preschool.

    What are you even talking about?
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    How you have said free speech then went against free speech, it seems it is you who has little intellect
    If I had said and done exactly that, then I would agree. However, I didn't. Your lack of intellect is being conveyed even further by your inability to comprehend what you are reading. I made clear distinctions and a clear argument. You have said the same, unsubstantiated rubbish from the word 'go'.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Again, I would argue it doesn't. It depends on what one means when they use 'offence'.
    Offense as in hurtful harrasment and incitement to violence- those aren't a part of free speech. But everything else is.
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    Canada!
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Offense as in hurtful harrasment and incitement to violence- those aren't a part of free speech. But everything else is.
    And this is where I agree. This is the distinction. Finally, somebody ****ing understands.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Again, I would argue it doesn't. It depends on what one means when they use 'offence'.




    Yes because this is the 21st Century and we live in democracies. You can't just do and say what you please. If you want that, go the **** back to preschool.

    What are you even talking about?
    Things like the civil rights movement wouldnt have happened if your ideas were in force.

    So you are once again saying you dont believe in free speech
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    If I had said and done exactly that, then I would agree. However, I didn't. Your lack of intellect is being conveyed even further by your inability to comprehend what you are reading. I made clear distinctions and a clear argument. You have said the same, unsubstantiated rubbish from the word 'go'.
    You talk about free speech then say that certain things said arent free
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Things like the civil rights movement wouldnt have happened if your ideas were in force.

    So you are once again saying you dont believe in free speech
    Are you actually insane? How in God's name can you even try and argue that the Civil Rights Movement wouldn't have happened if people weren't allowed to offend others in a derogatory, hurtful, or violent manner? Stupidity literally radiates from every single one of your posts :lol:.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    You talk about free speech then say that certain things said arent free
    That would be because certain things are not. **** me, it's like talking to an infant.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    That would be because certain things are not. **** me, it's like talking to an infant.
    I know because your views are contradictory you believe in free speech but only if you agree with how it is said.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Good because you're not debating - you're failing.



    First Link: Right, and how is that acceptable? The man should be condemned for that. For one, it's putting all muslims into the same boat and it's hateful. It's assuming all muslims are terrorists which is extremely offensive and unreasonable. How you can even use that as an example makes me ****ing die laughing.

    Second Link: I don't understand how this argues your point either?

    The CNBC link doesn't show what is said about anything? Invalid, again.

    Can you all not just ****ing realise already that you have no basis for this irrational argument?
    Woah there, relax for a minute, for somebody yearning for a rational argument, your fervent way of responding even makes Plato turn in his grave. Your insertion of f**ks does not make your arguments any rational either.


    With regard to the first link, please do explain to me how that man's words were hateful or condemnable in any way. He asked her to explain "Brussels"; she could have given him a reply like Cameron's typical bile "Islam is not a religion of hate" and that would have done just fine. It was a question, not an accusation, not a single word of hate. Asking somebody a question, regardless of what you might assume of the person's intention behind that question, does not count as hateful or offensive. If you want to find out more about rationality, I recommend Descartes' Discourse on the Method or rightly conducting one's reason.
 
 
 
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