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Barack Obama: Brexit would put UK at 'back of the queue' in trade talks Watch

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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Alex Massie has been a Euro shill from the start. This is because he does not want to lose Scotland from the UK, which he thinks will follow from a leave vote.
    That's it, attack the man, not the argument. Well done you.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    That's it, attack the man, not the argument. Well done you.
    There's nothing in the argument that hasn't been said by other people in a less annoying tone.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Quite often American and UK interests are the same. As vote leave have made claims about what the future relationship with countries such as America would be, then it is only fair that these can be substantiated.
    Indeed. I granted that explicitly. I then noted that the issue is in his going on and telling us all about our own interests, in general terms.


    He's stating his opinion, which as a close ally we should heed.

    On your second point...,what? Who better than friends to say , look it's up to you mate, but this isn't going to work. But it's better for some randomer or someone hostile to go yeah it'll be fine.

    Don't forget we have channels like RT in our country. Whether open or not, countries will have an influence on our decision making as a democracy.
    I expect a degree of respect from our allies that I do not expect from other countries. That includes giving us space to run our own democracy. That is what I meant by that comment.

    I expect the Russians to try to manipulate us into acting as suits them. I do not expect it from our allies.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Indeed. I granted that explicitly. I then noted that the issue is in his going on and telling us all about our own interests, in general terms.
    Could you highlight what he said in particular and why it is unacceptable?

    I expect a degree of respect from our allies that I do not expect from other countries. That includes giving us space to run our own democracy. That is what I meant by that comment.

    I expect the Russians to try to manipulate us into acting as suits them. I do not expect it from our allies.
    Sorry, I profoundly disagree. I don't think he could have been more respectful, as he highlighted it's OUR choice. He didn't attack anyone advocating brexit. This is not manipulation this is him openly stating what he thinks is in both the UKs and US's interests and why that was the case. This is a grave decision with far reaching considerations. He would have been remiss not to. See my latest topic regarding barrosso and the s n p.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Could you highlight what he said in particular and why it is unacceptable?



    Sorry, I profoundly disagree. I don't think he could have been more respectful, as he highlighted it's OUR choice. He didn't attack anyone advocating brexit. This is not manipulation this is him openly stating what he thinks is in both the UKs and US's interests and why that was the case. This is a grave decision with far reaching considerations. He would have been remiss not to. See my latest topic regarding barrosso and the s n p.
    I think the things he has said that go beyond assessing the American interest in the situation become inappropriate, particularly in the light of his visit to the country, as far as I can work out, for the express purpose of intervening in this race.

    Note that I say that they become inappropriate. I do not say that they become outrageous, and I think one should keep a sense of perspective with these things.

    So, he made some of the following comments in his Telegraph piece:

    As citizens of the United Kingdom take stock of their relationship with the EU, you should be proud that the EU has helped spread British values and practices – democracy, the rule of law, open markets – across the continent and to its periphery. The European Union doesn’t moderate British influence – it magnifies it. A strong Europe is not a threat to Britain’s global leadership; it enhances Britain’s global leadership.
    And in today’s world, even as we all cherish our sovereignty, the nations who wield their influence most effectively are the nations that do it through the collective action that today’s challenges demand.
    When it comes to creating jobs, trade, and economic growth in line with our values, the UK has benefited from its membership in the EU – inside a single market that provides enormous opportunities for the British people.
    In terms of all these things, he may well be right. However, it certainly goes beyond expressing America's interest in the matter. I simply do not think it is appropriate for any foreign leader to come here and tell the British people what they ought to be proud of, what they ought to prioritise in terms of their foreign policy, and how they can best pursue economic success.

    Note that the second of these comments is something that the President would never put to his own people in like circumstances. The Americans are extremely wary of even such modest arrangements as NAFTA. Something on the scale of the EU would be unthinkable -- and yet their President feels it is appropriate to tell us (in as many words) that we ought to accept such an arrangement. That is another part of this that is causing irritation.

    I don't think he was disrespectful in the way he expressed himself. He was clearly very careful with his tone. I do think it was a discourtesy and inappropriate for him to express himself so widely.

    I should note that I have not declared for Leave. I'm undecided, although my emotional leanings are certainly towards leave. I like to think I would feel the same way if I were a staunch Remainer, although obviously I don't know that.
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    (Original post by MrsSheldonCooper)
    No idea why Obama's butting in. It isn't his problem at all.
    Because the OUTers are saying "we'll just to a deal with the USA" and the president of the USA is saying "oh no you won't".
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Because the OUTers are saying "we'll just to a deal with the USA" and the president of the USA is saying "oh no you won't".
    The president won't be there.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    The president won't be there.
    Indeed. We'll do a deal with President Trump. President Trump loves to make deals.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Indeed. We'll do a deal with President Trump. President Trump loves to make deals.
    He even wrote a book about that.

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    (Original post by Josb)
    He even wrote a book about that.

    It's a tremendous book. Tremendous. Unbelievable. Everyone's read it. It's the best book - no, the second best book, after the bible.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    It's a tremendous book. Tremendous. Unbelievable. Everyone's read it. It's the best book - no, the second best book, after the bible.
    Amazing. Great. Fabulous. I love that. That's great.
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    Lol.

    The US President commenting on something that might affect the US and Brexiters have a breakdown.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Not so sure on that one. E.g Saudi arms deals. By your definition, that would be acting in britains interests but this would be against The people's wishes and could potentially destabilise the UK in the future,
    It's for reasons such as this we elect an executive to represent us and our best interests. We cannot agree with them all the time. Secondly, the interests of the public and opinion are two very different thing. We can dislike something but it still be good for us.

    (Original post by Davij038)
    Iirc t he EU has more trade deals than any other state or similar entity.
    Indeed, it has a substantial list of trade deals: http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/cou...en.htm#_europe The issue isn't that. It's the terms on which these deals are often concluded, which worries me. The U.K. (and the other EU nations) have given over the power to negotiate the deals (think TTIP) over to Brussels. I understand the logic behind it (a larger bloc will have more 'power' at the negotiating table) but in practice this hasn't always been a reflection of British interests and/or opinion.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Seems like a matter of Mexican policy to me.

    Let's imagine David Cameron flying to New York a few days ago and writing a piece in the New York Times condemning Trump and endorsing Kasich. Does anyone seriously want to claim that that would be okay?
    b
    Of course it would.

    The leave campaigns big argument has been that the rest of the world will be waiting for us with open arms, yet the USA, the most powerful nation has said that's not the case.

    Would be foolish not to listen.
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    This is the Salmond trap and having seen what happened to Wee Eck it is staggering the Leave campaign has fallen into it.

    Predicting what others will do is a mug's game if the others are around to contradict you.
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    (Original post by Josb)
    The president won't be there.
    Although there are US elections in November Obama will still be president of the USA into January 2017. But, apart from that, who is qualified to make a statement on how the US will deal with the UK after a potential Brexit? He is still the president now, he will continue being the president for some time. There's at least a 50% chance that the next president will be a Democrat too, so may well have exactly the same views. I can't actually find anything that says what her position is, other than this (which isn't that helpful):

    US Democratic presidential frontrunner Hillary Clinton believes a Brexit from the European Union would be “awful for Ireland”, Bill Clinton said last night… “First thing she says, ‘I bet that would be awful for Ireland and pretty tough for Northern Ireland’,” the former president said of their conversation. He said Ms Clinton was “really worried about that”.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...bill-1.2608403

    I'm not really finding anything from Sanders, but this indicates that he seems to prefer European social models over those in the USA:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/5-thi...-2016-clinton/

    Mr Trump says:

    Asked if he thought Britain would be better of if it left, he said: "I don't know, you'd have to ask them. I just think they may leave”
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...stoppable.html

    Marco Rubio seems to be similarly non-committal:

    “I don’t think it’s proper for an American president . . . to tell the UK what is right for them, any more than it would be right for the UK to tell us that they wanted us to sign Nafta [the North American Free Trade Agreement] or some other agreement”.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015...uropean-union/

    Ted Cruz says:

    “President Obama, if anything his campaigning against [Britain leaving] will make it more likely that England will pull out of the EU,”
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...k-obama-brexit

    Although I'm not sure that I really care what he says when he really doesn't seem to understand that "England" doesn't have the option of pulling out of the EU, as it is not a member (the "UK" is).

    So, while you may cast doubt on what President Obama may be able to do on the issue in the future, I would suggest that he is the person most in the know on this matter, and you cannot conjure up any better opinion than he already has.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    b
    Of course it would.

    The leave campaigns big argument has been that the rest of the world will be waiting for us with open arms, yet the USA, the most powerful nation has said that's not the case.

    Would be foolish not to listen.
    The Americans would be outraged and rightly so.

    I've addressed the argument that he is entitled to tell us about America's standpoint and likely response several times now. In short, he is, but he went further than that.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Although there are US elections in November Obama will still be president of the USA into January 2017. But, apart from that, who is qualified to make a statement on how the US will deal with the UK after a potential Brexit? He is still the president now, he will continue being the president for some time. There's at least a 50% chance that the next president will be a Democrat too, so may well have exactly the same views.
    Treaties must be approuved by the Senate, which is not Democratic. Obama can make a statement, but it cannot predict the future. There are too many unknown in the equation.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    It's a matter of British foreign policy which is open for the decision of the British people.

    He is quite entitled to speak for America's interests, or indeed to give his opinion on any matter. What is improper about this is that he is directly involving himself in the campaign.

    Likewise, British politicians are entitled to express their views about Donald Trump, but if David Cameron were to have flown to New York to tell Republican voters to support Kasich instead just before the primary that would have been problematic.

    But it is worse than that. Here, the President is telling the British people that they ought to accept an arrangement which, though it is now trite to say it, America would never contemplate. Whatever else you have to say about it, Boris's piece in the Sun was absolutely right about that.

    I don't dislike Obama, and I'm sure he was pressured by the Prime Minister into sticking his oar in, but it would have been more appropriate for him to refuse.
    Obama quote -

    "Let me be clear: ultimately this is something the British voters have to decide for themselves.
    As part of our special relationship, part of being friends is to be honest and to let you know what I think, and speaking honestly, the outcome of that decision is a matter of deep interest to the US, because it affects our prosperity as well."


    Like a rational individual he voiced his opinion and clarified why so. This hardly meddling in to British politics tbh.

    And besides, even IMF spoke on Brexit... and so have lot of people of significance (CEOs).
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    (Original post by TaintedLight)
    Obama quote -

    "Let me be clear: ultimately this is something the British voters have to decide for themselves.

    As part of our special relationship, part of being friends is to be honest and to let you know what I think, and speaking honestly, the outcome of that decision is a matter of deep interest to the US, because it affects our prosperity as well."

    Like a rational individual he voiced his opinion and clarified why so. This hardly meddling in to British politics tbh.

    And besides, even IMF spoke on Brexit but no one seemed to feel "outraged" and so have lot of people of significance (CEOs). Given brexit's economic and financial significance everyone is entitled to speak their minds when inquired.
    Yes, I've noted he was careful with his tone. That can't obscure the fact that he came to this country to aid one particular campaign in a national ballot; not just to tell us about the American interest and likely response, but to tell us what our own interests require.

    I don't think the IMF (an international organisation) or CEOs (private citizens) are fairly analogous to the leader of an allied country.
 
 
 
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