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    I think it's such a shame that people, in this day and age where information is freely available if you would just look for it, are so ignorant of how the meat, dairy, egg industries etc operate. Truly very sad that people have become so thoughtless to where and how their lovely animal products are actually produced.
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    (Original post by Platopus)
    I'm not vegetarian or vegan but as I understand it the objection to eating eggs is that in doing so we are supporting an industry which often mistreats the chickens and kills the vast majority of male chicks on birth.
    I actually didn't know about the killing male chicks thing. That's not great. However, and just as an example, my parents have some battery rescue chickens which we get eggs from (apparently they stop laying artificially early because of the conditions in the factories, but can be brought back to health if you get them before they're slaughtered). As I understand it a strict vegan would still oppose our eating their eggs. Well, the chickens don't care that we're eating their eggs. They're just enjoying not being in a tiny box, I imagine.

    Certainly there are problems with the meat industry that I'd like to see dealt with, but personally I wouldn't deprive myself of a full diet only to have the most irrelevant imaginable effect on overall demand.
    (Original post by Serpentine111)
    4. Your last statement is just ignorant. I have pet chickens and they treat their eggs likes it's the most precious thing they have.
    Well, that conflicts directly with the evidence I've seen. I will assume that chicken behaviour differs massively and that you're not telling tall tales.
    3. Leading on from point 2, what made people think it's ok to think of animals as products to basically use and abuse for cash? If an animal i deemed worthless it's killed. If it fulfills it's "use" it's mistreated, just so people like you can make an omelette or have some chicken nuggets.
    I suppose this is the core of the matter.

    All I can say is that I don't have any problem with raising and killing animals for practical purposes, so long as they're treated humanely while they're alive.
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    (Original post by Jonsmith98)
    This all sounds really promising, I would defiantly be interested In trying to shift my diet towards a less meat dependent style. It would probably be something I would play around with in the summer, for example i could try to allocate one day a week where I avoid all animal products. Then depending on the success or failure of that I could then increase it to two days a week and so on.
    I think that's great of you, at least you are considering it which is much better than saying nope. If you asked me two years ago if I'd ever be vegan I would have said hell no Good luck!

    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Certainly there are problems with the meat industry that I'd like to see dealt with, but personally I wouldn't deprive myself of a full diet only to have the most irrelevant imaginable effect on overall demand.

    Well, that conflicts directly with the evidence I've seen. I will assume that chicken behaviour differs massively and that you're not telling tall tales.

    I suppose this is the core of the matter.

    All I can say is that I don't have any problem with raising and killing animals for practical purposes, so long as they're treated humanely while they're alive.
    But if everyone thought "what difference could a single person make?" then there would never be change, luckily veganism is becoming more and more popular for various reasons.

    I wouldn't need to tell tales in order to get my point across at how terrible the egg industry is, however, I will say that my chickens are a breed that are notoriously broody and I'd assume that hens in the egg-laying industry are bred not to be.

    I guess we can just agree to disagree, but I'll finish by saying that ethical reasons are only one aspect as to why the meat/dairy/egg industry is a problem - there are HUGE environmental impacts.
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    I personally don't care what people put in their bodies. I'll never try to convert a vegan or vegetarian. But its annoying how some of em are wayyyy too involved what meat eaters eat.
    Don't want to eat meat and/or stick to an animal product free meals? I don't care. Some people do not care bout the well being of animals. I like animals but I don't have a prob eating em, lol.

    But promote veganism everywhere and trash people who do eat meat? Yeah, what a great way to make people vegans.
    1) Tell em they're all murders
    2.) Make up lies that if you eat meat you will certainly get cancer. Yep.

    I had a math teacher who was a vegan. She was sweet.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    Eating meat is morally egregious. If only perfect people were allowed to judge others, nobody would be able to judge another person on the basis of any of their actions, ever. In any case, I don't even judge meat-eaters, really, unless they try and argue their position dishonestly. I never tell them that they are bad people, because that's not constructive and also untrue. I merely state facts about the practices of the meat industry and its impact on the world, and if that makes meat-eaters uncomfortable, I consider that to have a lot more to do with their attitude than mine.
    Why do you think that eating meat is morally egregious? Would this extend to the meat of animals hunted in over-populated areas where they would starve to death slowly due to competition for food? Or the meat of predators in areas where they pose a significant risk to human beings? Would you object to the killing on any grounds? If so, is it morally egregious to eat the meat of an animal that died of natural causes? What if a human being gives explicit consent to be eaten after they die - would that be morally egregious?

    All in all, I've never sought to arrogate the moral high ground. Not eating meat is a better practice than eating meat, but that doesn't make me a better person than any given carnivore. I talk about why meat-eating is unethical in an attempt to get more people to stop, not to make myself high-and-mighty.
    I think that is reasonable as long as you stop if people ask you to. I have no problem with you communicating your views to friends (for example) if they are receptive. You clearly think abstaining from eating meat is the best thing to do so it is reasonable to want your friends to make the same "better" choices. I have been quite persistent with persuading friends of the value of certain positions I hold with regards to justice, education and the like in the past.

    I'd also like to point out that I haven't bought or received a new article of clothing or electronic device since Christmas. I'm well aware that modern consumerist culture is riddled with products that have unethical backgrounds, making them extremely difficult to avoid, but I'm trying my hardest, dammit, so speak for yourself!
    Well I said often, not always, which left plenty of room for vegans who do also do their best not to support exploitative industries. I know several such people. However, why have you not stopped using and wearing the items you already have? Have you checked the ethical record of the company that made the parts for your computer or laptop? If you have a smartphone, have you done the same and then bought a phone which is made ethically? Would you shop in ASDA given Wal-Mart's history? If I recall correctly they are one of the businesses blacklisted by Norway's sovereign wealth fund, for example.

    None of this is meant as a "gotcha" as you'll have heard these points before, I am just interested in where you think the appropriate place is for a person to draw the line?
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    (Original post by SmileyVibe)
    2.) Make up lies that if you eat meat you will certainly get cancer. Yep.
    You won't definitely get cancer - cancer is enormously multifactorial. Eating meat is a proven risk factor for cancer, though. That is scientific consensus, not some lies that I've made up.
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    I've been vegetarian for a year and did plenty of research on it before changing to this diet. Your opinion that vegetarianism is "daft"- however entitled you are to it- is simply ignorant. We're not designed to eat meat. Yes, we have evolved to be omnivorous but that was because humans CHOSE to start eating meat. We put outselves on that food chain. When you look at the anatomy of carnivorous animals you'll see that the anatomies of humans are completely different. Our digestive systems are different, and when you look at a carnivores jaw and teeth you can see that it is made to be able to tear through meat and bone- humans dont have that. Yes we have canine teeth at the front, but they are there to tear food and not specifically meat. Primates, which we've evolved from, also have these teeth and they have vegan diets (98% vegan at least).
    I still eat other animal products such as eggs, dairy etc but try and have soya alternatives whenever i can.
    I don't appreciate you comment saying that i need to try to be "nice and healthy" as it is not your place ro comment on anyones health- not just mine. Im actually healthier as a vegetarian than i ever was when i ate meat.
    The reason I don't eat meat is because i think it's an unfathomably selfish belief that animals lives are here for us to take. Also the meat and fish industry as it is isnt sustainable.
    It's your opinion and like i said of course you are entitled to it ut i just thought it sounded like you didn't have the right information
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    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Why do you think that eating meat is morally egregious?
    You ask some good questions. In general, I hold the practice of everyday consumption of store-bought meat from animals bred solely for exploitation and slaughter to be morally wrong. I'd agree that in some of the scenarios you describe, meat-eating could be more morally acceptable.

    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Would this extend to the meat of animals hunted in over-populated areas where they would starve to death slowly due to competition for food?
    My main issue with hunting animals in over-populated and underfed wild areas is that it's often human influence and human intervention that perpetuates the problem, usually by harming the population of the animal's natural predators or its food source.

    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Or the meat of predators in areas where they pose a significant risk to human beings? Would you object to the killing on any grounds? If so, is it morally egregious to eat the meat of an animal that died of natural causes? What if a human being gives explicit consent to be eaten after they die - would that be morally egregious?
    I think it would be morally acceptable to eat the meat of dangerous animals killed for human protection, but that occurs so rarely that it's no real defence of meat-eating in general. I also object, to a certain extent, to people living in areas where dangerous carnivores live. If we're encroaching on their domain and that can be avoided, the self-defence argument becomes somewhat less legitimate.

    I think it's morally acceptable to eat an animal after it dies of old age or natural causes, but I don't think that I personally ever would, unless I was starving or something. The only way I could be absolutely sure that the animal had been treated right and had had a happy and long life would be if I had personally lived with the animal - if I had kept it for milk or eggs or something. (I am not a complete vegan - while I deplore the state of today's dairy industry, I don't think the practice of milking has to be inherently harmful or cruel to cows.) But at that point, I think I'd have probably made some emotional attachment and it would be like eating a pet.

    Eating meat from the corpse of a human who has given their clear consent is probably nominally moral, but it also strikes me as a) frickin bizarre, and b) highly inadvisable from a medical perspective. Nobody wants a prion disease.

    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    I think that is reasonable as long as you stop if people ask you to. I have no problem with you communicating your views to friends (for example) if they are receptive. You clearly think abstaining from eating meat is the best thing to do so it is reasonable to want your friends to make the same "better" choices. I have been quite persistent with persuading friends of the value of certain positions I hold with regards to justice, education and the like in the past.
    Thanks for understanding.

    (Original post by ByronicHero)
    Well I said often, not always, which left plenty of room for vegans who do also do their best not to support exploitative industries. I know several such people. However, why have you not stopped using and wearing the items you already have? Have you checked the ethical record of the company that made the parts for your computer or laptop? If you have a smartphone, have you done the same and then bought a phone which is made ethically? Would you shop in ASDA given Wal-Mart's history? If I recall correctly they are one of the businesses blacklisted by Norway's sovereign wealth fund, for example.

    None of this is meant as a "gotcha" as you'll have heard these points before, I am just interested in where you think the appropriate place is for a person to draw the line?
    I haven't stopped wearing and using the items that I own with somewhat suspect backgrounds, because in my eyes, that doesn't really solve anything. The items have already been bought, I've already paid their manufacturers, and disposing of the items doesn't hurt the industry in any way. In fact, it means that I then have to replace the items by buying more things. My general approach to the problem is to consume as few products as possible. The other aspect of this is that consumerist culture just isn't sustainable, as I'm sure you've heard. A system where objects are manufactured, bought, and then eventually thrown away will inevitably run out of raw materials and waste disposal space, and both problems are evident in the world today.

    I haven't really looked into ASDA, but I don't shop there simply because from what I've heard it seems too cheap to be true - it makes me suspicious that they must be cutting corners somewhere, in ethical terms or otherwise. If they're winding up on blacklists, that comes as no surprise to me.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    You ask some good questions. In general, I hold the practice of everyday consumption of store-bought meat from animals bred solely for exploitation and slaughter to be morally wrong. I'd agree that in some of the scenarios you describe, meat-eating could be more morally acceptable.
    A reasonable position.

    My main issue with hunting animals in over-populated and underfed wild areas is that it's often human influence and human intervention that perpetuates the problem, usually by harming the population of the animal's natural predators or its food source.
    This is indeed often the case; for example in the US where enormous deer populations cause thousands of car accidents and hundreds of deaths every year because of a lack of predators. The question becomes 1) would we rather hunters kill and eat a portion of these deer each year in the interest of population control or have thousands of additional wolves running around, and 2) though human intervention may have created any given situation, do we not we still have to elect to take actions given the state of play now? I have very little issue with hunting and then eating what you kill. I also think much of the meat industry (and the dairy industry as you mention below) is hugely unethical, but I think extending the argument to "eating meat is morally egregious" ignores too much context to be correct. Evidently you agree though, so that's fine.

    I think it would be morally acceptable to eat the meat of dangerous animals killed for human protection, but that occurs so rarely that it's no real defence of meat-eating in general. I also object, to a certain extent, to people living in areas where dangerous carnivores live. If we're encroaching on their domain and that can be avoided, the self-defence argument becomes somewhat less legitimate.
    It doesn't need to be a defence of meat eating in general though as my purpose was to introduce scenarios which are more morally ambiguous and this is clearly one. As I've said above, it would be very difficult to argue that the majority of the meat and dairy industry across the world isn't awful.

    I don't think I buy the encroachment argument really. Call me speciesist, but I value the lives of human beings above those of animals. It is our actions that often drive predators to the outskirts of cities, or into remote communities, and I don't want to disregard that fact. However, clearly it isn't practical to move entire communities on the basis that we are unwilling to control populations. Then again, I do mourn each extinction a little. It scares me to think of how many more animals might be viewed by my children's children only in books. I'm more sad about the Irish elk than certain types of rat though, admittedly

    I think it's morally acceptable to eat an animal after it dies of old age or natural causes, but I don't think that I personally ever would, unless I was starving or something. The only way I could be absolutely sure that the animal had been treated right and had had a happy and long life would be if I had personally lived with the animal - if I had kept it for milk or eggs or something. (I am not a complete vegan - while I deplore the state of today's dairy industry, I don't think the practice of milking has to be inherently harmful or cruel to cows.) But at that point, I think I'd have probably made some emotional attachment and it would be like eating a pet.
    That's fair. I don't think I could eat an animal I had kept for a long period of time. Wanting them to be happy is positive - many animals certainly don't have a particularly happy time in the wild. I think I read recently that elephants live considerably longer in the wild than in zoos.

    Eating meat from the corpse of a human who has given their clear consent is probably nominally moral, but it also strikes me as a) frickin bizarre, and b) highly inadvisable from a medical perspective. Nobody wants a prion disease.
    I agree with a and b but whether something is advisable or not is a different question. This was me bordering on ad absurdum but I thought it worth asking for flavour! :lol:

    I haven't stopped wearing and using the items that I own with somewhat suspect backgrounds, because in my eyes, that doesn't really solve anything. The items have already been bought, I've already paid their manufacturers, and disposing of the items doesn't hurt the industry in any way. In fact, it means that I then have to replace the items by buying more things. My general approach to the problem is to consume as few products as possible. The other aspect of this is that consumerist culture just isn't sustainable, as I'm sure you've heard. A system where objects are manufactured, bought, and then eventually thrown away will inevitably run out of raw materials and waste disposal space, and both problems are evident in the world today.
    But in the future you will perhaps buy an ethical handset such as the Fairphone or some other similar device when it comes time to replace your current model? And won't buy clothes from the various highstreet outlets with abhorrent labour practices? I'm with you on the consumerist culture front; I have had a number of flirtations with minimalism that have not quite stuck but have helped lessen some of my attachment to physical things (mainly books).

    I haven't really looked into ASDA, but I don't shop there simply because from what I've heard it seems too cheap to be true - it makes me suspicious that they must be cutting corners somewhere, in ethical terms or otherwise. If they're winding up on blacklists, that comes as no surprise to me.
    I shop at ASDA and the quality is fine. The model is essentially that slightly undercutting the competition allows you to make up for decreased margins by having higher footfall. Wal-Mart are awful I think. I recall reading that some stores held public collections for their own staff who were essentially living in poverty due to the terrible pay. This may have been satire that I read when I was drunk to be honest, but it makes a point :lol:
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    I don't hate vegans or vegetarians.My friend is a pure vegan so I have to respect her choice of food.
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    (Original post by ODES_PDES)
    I am a vegetarian.
    Cannot be a vegan because I love cheese so much
    Same here lol, id pretty much be vegan if it wasnt for cheese xD

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Posting anonymously so I don't get slated for my opinions :argh:

    If you have to be vegetarian/vegan for a real dietary purpose then that's absolutely fine, that's what's best for your body. And religious reasons for meat etc, that's also fine.
    BUT,
    if you're one of those people who becomes veggie/vegan because you want to be different/think it's cool then that's just daft. We designed to eat meat and animal produce and we get loads and loads of nutrients from it. Sure, there are lots of other alternatives that vegans eat but you're paying more in general and what's the point? I know a couple of vegans and they have to take supplements because they're lacking important vitamins. Do what's best for your body and eat a proper, balanced diet in combination with regular exercise and you'll be nice and healthy.
    You shouldnt have had to post that anonymously xD
    Its true. Im vegetarian, and at uni I hear a lot of vegats say "im vegan". I thought that s*it was just a meme, but they actually do talk like that.
    I dont brag about being vegetarian lol, people are shocked when they find out im a vegetarian.
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    (Original post by anosmianAcrimony)
    You won't definitely get cancer - cancer is enormously multifactorial. Eating meat is a proven risk factor for cancer, though. That is scientific consensus, not some lies that I've made up.
    Eating too much meat can be unhealthy (red meats) just as consuming too much Vitamins. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.

    The thing with the meat can cause causer argument is rarely do people go into detail about how.
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    (Original post by Crhodd)
    I don't appreciate you comment saying that i need to try to be "nice and healthy" as it is not your place ro comment on anyones health- not just mine. Im actually healthier as a vegetarian than i ever was when i ate meat.
    Do you happen to exercise as well? Maybe you didn't slip enough fruits and veggies in your diet when you were a meat eater?
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    Someone else's diet doesn't effect me in any way so I can't have any real say on it. I personally wouldn't become vegetarian or vegan. I'm too damn fussy.

    If I became vegan I'm not even sure what I'd eat...

    What I do know is that with any sort of inherently different lifestyle, you get the people that ALWAYS talk about it. That's the only part about it that really bugs me, your diet isn't your personality!
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    Sorry I should've been more clear. I think I'm healthier now because I'm eating MORE fruits and vegetables, not because i lacked them when i ate meat. I used to play a lot of netball but I've stopped so that i can focus on schoolwork. I jog as often as i can and i work part time as a waitress which involves a lot of running around in itself and i also walk everywhere.
    It sounds a bit like you're implying a person can't be perfectly healthy if they don't eat meat? If thats the case then that simply isnt true as it isn't the actual meat that we need but rather the proteins and supplements that come with it- thinbs thag are found in several other foods
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    (Original post by katodizzle)
    No I'm not, I'm just curious about it because I am a meat eater myself but I eat as little meat as possible to do my bit, even if it is a little.
    ah cool, why don't you want to be vegetarian/vegan?
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    I'm a vegetarian but sometimes I wish I could be vegan. Unfortunately, I've got a lot of dietary restrictions for a bunch of different reasons, so I'd be screwed if I didn't have eggs. I feel guilty because I know about the cruelty, but I live in a big city and can't access kinder eggs without paying ridiculous prices. I used to be one of those people who tried to guilt others about not being vegetarian but now I only do it when I'm pissed off at my mom :P
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    (Original post by ProbablyJade)
    ah cool, why don't you want to be vegetarian/vegan?
    Well I could be vegetarian if I really tried, but vegan is too far for me, I wouldn't manage. Also, it's really difficult for me to be a vegetarian because I come from a big meat eating family who don't believe in vegetarianism and don't let me be one. But it's also really hard to be vegetarian in boarding school because the meals aren't substantial enough, and I can't make my own food and bring it in. So as much as I would like to, I can't for the moment, maybe when I'm living by myself I'll give it a go.
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    (Original post by katodizzle)
    Well I could be vegetarian if I really tried, but vegan is too far for me, I wouldn't manage. Also, it's really difficult for me to be a vegetarian because I come from a big meat eating family who don't believe in vegetarianism and don't let me be one. But it's also really hard to be vegetarian in boarding school because the meals aren't substantial enough, and I can't make my own food and bring it in. So as much as I would like to, I can't for the moment, maybe when I'm living by myself I'll give it a go.
    Don't worry i had the same problem, try getting one vegetarian meal a week through showing them the animal slaughter documentaries
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    (Original post by ProbablyJade)
    Don't worry i had the same problem, try getting one vegetarian meal a week through showing them the animal slaughter documentaries
    I've mentioned those documentaries to my parents but they don't budge. I mean, even though they're not vegetarian etc doesn't mean we buy 'bad' meat. My mum is super strict when buying animal products and only buys organic/free range everything which is better than nothing.
 
 
 
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