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Why do the Brits have this idea that the EU is undemocratic? Watch

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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Turkey are still in the Queue and talks have been accelerated. I watched on the BBC the debates in the EU parliament on this very topic. There are proceedings in place to eventually get Turkey into the EU, surely you are not denying that?
    Turkey has wanted to get into the EU for a very long time.

    What has changed now? Some talks as part of the immigrant deal?

    No.
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    it is
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    (Original post by ilovecookees)
    it is
    Strong post.
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    What about Manchester?
    Manchester never had international borders so no but the best form devolution should take place to ensure they can decide things themselves. When you start asking that question things become stupid
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    (Original post by ilovecookees)
    it is
    I saw inspiration in this post
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    But do you accept the opinions of Yorkshire voters when Manchester is affected?
    Or Scottish votes when British laws are concerned?
    Where do you draw the distinction?
    At the borders of the country, obviously.
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    Manchester never had international borders so no but the best form devolution should take place to ensure they can decide things themselves. When you start asking that question things become stupid
    What about Mercia? Or Wessex?
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    (Original post by Omen96)
    I saw inspiration in this post
    Innit?
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    At the borders of the country, obviously.
    Obviously?

    Borders have been redrawn so many times throughout history, why are the ones we have now, final?

    And what about South Tirol, Basque country, Catalonia, Bavaria? All of these regions used to be their own, all of them have voiced, to a lesser and greater extent, ideas of wanting to split from their current countries.

    Bavaria for example is very much opposed to quite many things really of what is decided in Berlin.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    What about Mercia? Or Wessex?
    I guess if the inhabitants came to the conclusion they want a referendum on the issue I can't deny them that. But it makes no logical sense why they would, that's why we are not debating that.

    I agree with the principle but fortunately economical and political sense prevails lol
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    (Original post by tyling_roses)
    But do you accept the opinions of Yorkshire voters when Manchester is affected?
    Or Scottish votes when British laws are concerned?
    Where do you draw the distinction?
    Drawing the line at the country level makes sense, considering the shared culture, language and history within a country that does not exist in the same way within the EU.

    Furthermore, you do need to remember that a lot of people in this country would like increased devolution and local powers.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    Do they not know that there elections for MEPs?
    They do, but believe (I think correctly) that MEPs do not have much power.

    The EU is a sort of "constitutional" democracy in the sense that Britain is a "constitutional monarchy". It has a figurehead parliament but actual decision making occurs elsewhere.
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    (Original post by RF_PineMarten)
    Furthermore, you do need to remember that a lot of people in this country would like increased devolution and local powers.
    And you can have increased devolution and local powers and EU membership, where those areas where co-operation is useful can be integrated at the EU level.

    This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. It's not 'leave the EU and get localism, or stay in and have everything run from Brussels!'
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    They do, but believe (I think correctly) that MEPs do not have much power.

    The EU is a sort of "constitutional" democracy in the sense that Britain is a "constitutional monarchy". It has a figurehead parliament but actual decision making occurs elsewhere.
    Veto power.

    And who decided who gets to be where the actual decision making occurs?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    They do, but believe (I think correctly) that MEPs do not have much power.

    The EU is a sort of "constitutional" democracy in the sense that Britain is a "constitutional monarchy". It has a figurehead parliament but actual decision making occurs elsewhere.
    The Parliament can veto the Budget, appoints and sacks the Commission, and has considerable veto powers over nearly every field of legislation. Try again.
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    (Original post by brainhuman)
    Veto power.
    Exists in fewer and fewer cases. Usually what happens is that general decision making power over a broad area of issues is transferred to the EU institutions via a mechanism where the veto can be used, but if it is not then the veto cannot be used against EU decisions in that area in future. The power also cannot be clawed back except by unanimous decision.

    So there is a ratchet effect whereby more and more powers are transferred irreversibly to the EU institutions.

    And who decided who gets to be where the actual decision making occurs?
    It is a self-selecting bureaucracy.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    The Parliament can veto the Budget, appoints and sacks the Commission, and has considerable veto powers over nearly every field of legislation. Try again.
    The parliament cannot write the budget.

    Yes it can threaten to destroy everything unless it gets its way, but if it does not do that (and it is pretty hard to coordinate sufficiently to do that in a body made up of three or four different ideological splinters from each of 28 different countries) the decisions are made by the bureaucracy and merely passed to the parliament to be stamped.

    Most votes in the parliament proceed by show of hands with dozens of "votes" held in the course of a few minutes. It is not even recorded (or measured) how many people voted Aye and Nay on each proposal, let alone how each individual representative voted. The parliament is just theatre, so it doesn't matter.
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    Okay so pretty much everyone here have said my thoughts, but I'll throw something else into the mix.

    Do you know who the President of the EU is? Do you know who your MEPs are?

    The answer to both of those, without googling, is no.

    There's your answer as to how democratic it is.
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    (Original post by gladders)
    Commission>>>>>>> Cabinet.
    European Council>>> Head of State
    Council of Ministers>>Senate
    Parliament>>>>>>>>>House of Representatives
    Where is the European Union's demos?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Exists in fewer and fewer cases. Usually what happens is that general decision making power over a broad area of issues is transferred to the EU institutions via a mechanism where the veto can be used, but if it is not then the veto cannot be used against EU decisions in that area in future. The power also cannot be clawed back except by unanimous decision.

    So there is a ratchet effect whereby more and more powers are transferred irreversibly to the EU institutions.
    A valid concern, for once, although the blocking minority is generous. It's a reasonable means of preventing one country holding the rest of the EU hostage, but also allows enormous scope for holding back legislation that part of the EU does not want.

    It is a self-selecting bureaucracy.
    That would be Member State officials.
 
 
 
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