Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

How do Remain voters try to justify the undemocratic nature of the EU? Watch

    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Tahret)
    What's the name of the UK's EU Commissioner? Without Google.

    Assuming by some miracle you know, could you ever vote him out of office? Is he accountable?
    He/she (I don't know which :teehee:) is accountable to our democratically elected government.

    The proposed EU Constitution was going to turn them into elected officials but the anti-EU sentiment defeated that one. A case of wanting cake and eating it too.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    Now you can correctly claim that UK voters didn't have the option to vote for the EPP in 2014, but that is because of Cameron throwing a hissy fit back in 2009 rather than some lack of democracy.
    "Your democratically elected official failed to represent you, so instead of removing that person from Government democratically as well as leaving the undemocratic EU, you should just suck it up already."
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by EuanF)
    "Your democratically elected official failed to represent you, so instead of removing that person from Government democratically as well as leaving the undemocratic EU, you should just suck it up already."
    We can vote for someone else at the next election in 3 years' time. That is how terms of office work.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    We can vote for someone else at the next election in 3 years' time. That is how terms of office work.
    Ah yes, the European Commission elections, three years ti-

    oh, we don't actually elect them?
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Ah yes, the European Commission elections, three years ti-

    oh, we don't actually elect them?
    We do indirectly elect the president.

    That Prime Minister we elected at the general election will appoint our Commission rep as he has appointed all of his government ministers.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    We do indirectly elect the president.

    That Prime Minister we elected at the general election will appoint our Commission rep as he has appointed all of his government ministers.
    So, like I said, we don't elect them.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Ah yes, the European Commission elections, three years ti-

    oh, we don't actually elect them?
    Nor do we elect the speaker of the house, or any of our ministers or any of our regulators, all of whom have significant power and influence over our lives. But neither do we want absolute democracy. You only have to look at the amusing farce that is Boaty McBoat Face to see how democracy doesn't always work.

    If you did vote for the EU commissioners just how would that improve accountability? You are still one vote in 300+ million. There is a high chance the person you wanted wouldn't get in and then you would be unrepresented and bitter again.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ByEeek)
    If you did vote for the EU commissioners just how would that improve accountability? You are still one vote in 300+ million. There is a high chance the person you wanted wouldn't get in and then you would be unrepresented and bitter again.
    In which ByEeek inadvertantly states the issue with trying to form a democracy the scale of the EU.

    Also, the Speaker of the House of Commons is elected. They have to be elected as an MP to become the speaker whereas a Comissioner is literally just any politician from an EU country; not even an elected one. The crucial difference between the Speaker and the EU Comissioners are that the speaker isn't the only part of Government capable of proposing law!
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by EuanF)
    So, like I said, we don't elect them.
    Name me one government minister who is directly elected to that role.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Saracen's Fez)
    Name me one government minister who is directly elected to that role.
    Name me one member of the House Of Commons that wasn't democratically elected to Parliament in which they fulfill a role.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    (Original post by EuanF)
    Name me one member of the House Of Commons that wasn't democratically elected to Parliament in which they fulfill a role.
    That is one possible system.

    Would you describe France as a democracy?
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    In which ByEeek inadvertantly states the issue with trying to form a democracy the scale of the EU.

    Also, the Speaker of the House of Commons is elected. They have to be elected as an MP to become the speaker whereas a Comissioner is literally just any politician from an EU country; not even an elected one. The crucial difference between the Speaker and the EU Comissioners are that the speaker isn't the only part of Government capable of proposing law!
    But, like the speaker of the house, the commission is voted for by the elected members of the EU parliament. And similarly the commissioners are appointed by their elected governments. I don't think the levels of democracy you appear to want are to be had anywhere in the world.

    The problem with democracy is that everyone wants their say, no one can agree and most end up disappointed. Do you really think your voice will have more significance if we left the EU? I mean seriously?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    The point is that the people of the UK can vote to have the current Government removed every five years. We will never have a vote to remove the Commission. It's down the the European Parliament, most of whom we, the British, did not elect.

    Once again, we're having law enforced on us by those we have not elected and cannot have removed.
    So you admit that this has nothing to do with the EU's process, but rather than the UK is just a small fish in a big pond? Because that bold part is just that, it has nothing to do with the EU being democratic or not.

    And why do you seem incapable to understand that in fact you did elect them, albeit indirectly? Did you know that Merkel wasn't elected by the Germans? She was elected by indirectly by German MPs. That would make Germany undemocratic in your eyes. And that despite the fact you guys have first past the post...just lol.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RF_PineMarten)
    It's often used as a form of whataboutery though, which is what I don't like about it. Someone brings up the problems with democracy in the EU and someone else is like "well there are xyz problems with the UK as well".

    Some people don't realise that it is possible to criticise the EU for being undemocratic while not thinking the UK's system is perfect. For example, some people in this country are talking about possible house of lords reform, and some about proportional voting systems. You can think the EU is undemocratic, while also thinking that the UK needs some change in that area.
    But that's not what I'm doing. I'm not whatabouting at all. I find the UK to be quite happily democratic (although open to suggestions for reform). My problem is many throw out the 'the EU is undemocratic' claim with absolutely zero justification - compared to what? Why? Is there a reason why it's this way that excuses it?

    Frankly, they're making cheap shots and claiming the UK's democracy is superior with little further consideration. It's nonsense.
    • TSR Community Team
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Community Team
    Study Helper
    (Original post by EuanF)
    The only portion of the EU capable of proposing law is the European Commission.
    The European Commission is not elected by anyone. You will never cast a vote for these people.

    It follows, therefore, that the EU is inherently undemocratic. You cannot vote for those who make your laws nor can you vote to remove those that make your laws. The authority to impose law should be derived from democratic election.

    How do Remain voters justify remaining in such an undemocratic system?
    Just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to or should walk away. That's obviously one option. The other is to stay and try to fix it.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by EuanF)
    He's the only one who gets to propose law
    I thought you said only the Commission has legislative initiative? :curious:
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Jack)
    Just because something is broken doesn't mean you have to or should walk away. That's obviously one option. The other is to stay and try to fix it.
    Have you not seen Cameron's successful renegotiation?

    It's quite clear the EU can't/won't be fixed, so then the best thing to do is to cut your losses init fam.
    • TSR Community Team
    • Study Helper
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Community Team
    Study Helper
    (Original post by BaronK)
    Have you not seen Cameron's successful renegotiation?

    It's quite clear the EU can't/won't be fixed, so then the best thing to do is to cut your losses init fam.
    Depends how you look at it I guess. If you're thinking year on year it's a slow process of course. If you're thinking over the course of centuries, it will work out OK.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by BaronK)
    Have you not seen Cameron's successful renegotiation?
    You mean the one where he secured the UK's opt-out from any future integration it doesn't what to get involved in? Sounds pretty awesome to me.

    It's quite clear the EU can't/won't be fixed, so then the best thing to do is to cut your losses init fam.
    'Take your ball, go home and sulk' is more like it.

    Anyway, the UK has been at the forefront of European reform. The Single European Act was pretty much Thatcher's brainchild. And with every new Treaty, the powers of the elected Parliament grew and grew.
    Offline

    9
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Captain Jack)
    Depends how you look at it I guess. If you're thinking year on year it's a slow process of course. If you're thinking over the course of centuries, it will work out OK.
    Over the course of centuries? So help me God.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you rather give up salt or pepper?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.