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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    Another issue with the idea of heaven is that it suggests eternal happiness - at some point, what would make somebody happy in the afterlife would be to the detriment of somebody else That somebody else might also seek the causation of detriment to the same person in their afterlife to achieve happiness. Does God, therefore, punish both of them or reward neither of them? Because either of those results do not achieve happiness. Does God lie to both of them about their outcomes? Then that would make God dishonest and untrustworthy, unlike what he is made out to be. If God is unable to satisfy the needs of both parties in Heaven, God cannot compensate either because both parties are dead and in a place of ultimate happiness and joy. Due to the subjectivity of both of those, if God is unable to functionally and honestly provide happiness to both parties then he is not all-powerful and Heaven isn't that great.
    Gonna have to explain that assumption



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    (Original post by RobML)
    Gonna have to explain that assumption



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    Are you religious rob?


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    (Original post by RobML)
    Gonna have to explain that assumption



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    Basically, two different interests will eventually conflict and there's no honest or logical way for God to satisfy both of those interests in heaven. If God lies or refuses these interests then he is being either dishonest or unable to fulfil what might satisfy somebody in heaven, meaning he isn't as powerful as he is made out to be and therefore not incredible enough to worship or call God.
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    Basically, two different interests will eventually conflict and there's no honest or logical way for God to satisfy both of those interests in heaven. If God lies or refuses these interests then he is being either dishonest or unable to fulfil what might satisfy somebody in heaven, meaning he isn't as powerful as he is made out to be and therefore not incredible enough to worship or call God.
    The common idea of heaven would say it is a state of the soul, not some kind of place which holds a community of souls. I don't think Christians believe souls in heaven have needs or desires anyway, which are the sole source of conflicts (you'd have to ask some though)
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    (Original post by RobML)
    The common idea of heaven would say it is a state of the soul, not some kind of place which holds a community of souls. I don't think Christians believe souls in heaven have needs or desires anyway, which are the sole source of conflicts (you'd have to ask some though)
    Are you religious?


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    (Original post by davidguettafan)
    Are you religious?


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    Never have been

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    (Original post by RobML)
    The common idea of heaven would say it is a state of the soul, not some kind of place which holds a community of souls. I don't think Christians believe souls in heaven have needs or desires anyway, which are the sole source of conflicts (you'd have to ask some though)
    But in a place of ultimate happiness and joy, surely the soul should have needs and desires anyway - are things in heaven unpermittedly occurring?
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    But in a place of ultimate happiness and joy, surely the soul should have needs and desires anyway - are things in heaven unpermittedly occurring?
    If you're in a state of ultimate happiness and joy what else is there to desire?

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    (Original post by RobML)
    If you're in a state of ultimate happiness and joy what else is there to desire?

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    What you see in heaven is what you desire, therefore you'll still feel needs and desires.
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    What you see in heaven is what you desire, therefore you'll still feel needs and desires.
    Circular argument.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Circular argument.
    That's the problem though, the argument is inherently circular which might lead to most arguments behind heaven being fallacious. The thing is that in order to satisfy your needs in Heaven, God needs to know what you want and what you'd like to see, both of which are needs and desires. You cannot have either of those forced on you otherwise they're neither a need or a desire, therefore you must experience them in heaven.
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    That's the problem though, the argument is inherently circular which might lead to most arguments behind heaven being fallacious. The thing is that in order to satisfy your needs in Heaven, God needs to know what you want and what you'd like to see, both of which are needs and desires. You cannot have either of those forced on you otherwise they're neither a need or a desire, therefore you must experience them in heaven.
    A pure happiness or bliss of soul is a necessary part of heaven according to the theology. Heaven isn't some arena in which explicit things are provided to satisfy needs and desires one carries with them from Earth.
    You're just pointing out some perceived irrationality of a version of heaven that probably no one actually believes in.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    A pure happiness or bliss of soul is a necessary part of heaven according to the theology. Heaven isn't some arena in which explicit things are provided to satisfy needs and desires one carries with them from Earth.
    You're just pointing out some perceived irrationality of a version of heaven that probably no one actually believes in.
    Maybe neither I, nor my soul are happy in heaven until certain needs are catered to. I surely won't be happy through-and-through without questioning anything, there must be a fuel for said joy, surely?
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    Maybe neither I, nor my soul are happy in heaven until certain needs are catered to. I surely won't be happy through-and-through without questioning anything, there must be a fuel for said joy, surely?
    Your soul is opened entirely to the glory God and that is the source of said infinite bliss (something along those lines). It's necessary and unavoidable. Nothing logically fallacious about it.
    You're probably better off talking to an actual Christian though...
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Your soul is opened entirely to the glory God and that is the source of said infinite bliss (something along those lines). It's necessary and unavoidable. Nothing logically fallacious about it.
    You're probably better off talking to an actual Christian though...
    What are your reasons for being an atheist rob?


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    (Original post by RobML)
    Your soul is opened entirely to the glory God and that is the source of said infinite bliss (something along those lines). It's necessary and unavoidable. Nothing logically fallacious about it.
    You're probably better off talking to an actual Christian though...
    So does nothing happen, and then I am to accept the glory of God as my heavenly satisfaction? Then surely, heaven is no different to purgatory as nothing happens? What is the point of heaven? It's a reward, but if you are dead and disconnected from reality then it serves no purpose being in heaven, as you only experience things that are ultimately abstract...
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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    So does nothing happen, and then I am to accept the glory of God as my heavenly satisfaction? Then surely, heaven is no different to purgatory as nothing happens? What is the point of heaven? It's a reward, but if you are dead and disconnected from reality then it serves no purpose being in heaven, as you only experience things that are ultimately abstract...
    It's all fake.


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    (Original post by niv1234)
    What to do if your parents are strictly religious but you want to be an atheist?
    Just do it?


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    (Original post by ChefExxxcellence)
    So does nothing happen, and then I am to accept the glory of God as my heavenly satisfaction? Then surely, heaven is no different to purgatory as nothing happens? What is the point of heaven? It's a reward, but if you are dead and disconnected from reality then it serves no purpose being in heaven, as you only experience things that are ultimately abstract...
    Yes, what happens is your soul is opened entirely to the glory of God.
    Heaven is obviously different to purgatory because you're not provided pure happiness and satisfaction of soul in the latter.
    It is/provides you with a state of pure happiness and satisfaction of soul that not possible in an earthy existence.
    Your body is dead, but your soul remains. It's your soul that experiences the pure happiness and satisfaction.
    The purpose of heaven is as a reward. Only experiencing things that are "abstract" doesn't change that.

    You're basically trying to pass a non-criticisms as a criticism and I'm struggling to see what your reasoning is.
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    (Original post by RobML)
    Yes, what happens is your soul is opened entirely to the glory of God.
    Heaven is obviously different to purgatory because you're not provided pure happiness and satisfaction of soul in the latter.
    It is/provides you with a state of pure happiness and satisfaction of soul that not possible in an earthy existence.
    Your body is dead, but your soul remains. It's your soul that experiences the pure happiness and satisfaction.
    The purpose of heaven is as a reward. Only experiencing things that are "abstract" doesn't change that.

    You're basically trying to pass a non-criticisms as a criticism and I'm struggling to see what your reasoning is.
    Here's my reasoning...

    - Heaven is pointless because you spend forever doing nothing, even if you experience eternal happiness there is no reason or merit for it. Even as a reward, it's very unfulfilling - why shouldn't I instead be reincarnated as a human, allowing me to relive the joys of learning and life all over again?

    - Some of the ideas in Heaven are impossible, as happiness for some might detriment others - even if you're being "opened" up, you don't know what happens there or if you'd rather see something else instead. For something to be so ultimately satisfactory that it overrides needs and desires, it still needs to satisfy certain criteria that either can't or shouldn't be satisfied. Besides, what kind of reward is the non-accomplishment of what you still sought to do in life?

    - Heaven and purgatory only have emotional differences, but you're still mostly inactive in both of these stages which makes them vastly uninteresting and anti-cathartic.
 
 
 
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