What is a reason for staying in the Eu? Watch

username878267
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#61
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#61
(Original post by MagicNMedicine)
Farage is trying to kiss Boris's ass and beg for a job but the fact is he's not an MP, he's not in the Conservatives, and he doesn't have much to offer Boris.

He might get some ceremonial role like the "cigarette Tsar" etc but if Boris becomes leader he is going to play power games and he will make sure he uses his patronage of important jobs with people who can cement his position ie a range of upcomers and big beasts in the Conservative party.
Fair enough.
What do you think will be the result of this referendum. Also if remain win can you see a big Tory chunk heading to UKIP or will they sort out Their differences?
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Empyreal
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#62
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(Original post by JNDSAN)
For security, economic prosperity, long term national unity, democracy, sovereignty, it's clear we need to leave.
It's abundantly clear you're listing things which you have no idea about, so I ask you a few questions:
In what way do you believe security improves when we leave the EU?

Have you read a single economic report except the one done by 'Economists for Brexit', which turned out to be full of inconsistencies anyway?

How 'undemocratic' do you think the EU is, and then how 'democratic' do you think the UK is by comparison?


(Original post by JNDSAN)
I hope that the past 40 odd years has just been a blip in our history and we'll go back to the self-governing, confident nation we used to be to grab hold of our future.
Now this is more like it.
Britons are finally realising that the UK hasn't been 'great' in 100 years and are upset that we no longer control half the world, so they think that by becoming 'sovereign' again, we'll somehow become more powerful.

During the industrial revolution, before we had competition, we were strong and powerful enough to be sovereign. Industry now makes up just 19% of our labour force; there's no way we can go back to the old days, and people are just bitter.
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NoahMal
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#63
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#63
staying in the EU will help EU students, leaving the EU will incurre larger uni fees for us EU students, we will have to pay around 17000 per year of uni fees... very very bad as nearly more EU students are going to uni in the UK than actual UK born.
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Empyreal
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#64
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#64
(Original post by nutz99)
Our borders are no longer our own,
Every time somebody makes this argument, and every time it continues to not be true; the UK is in control of its borders.
Anyone who wants to enter the UK still needs to present a passport or a national identity card issued by an EEA country for security checks by the UK Border Force.
The UK is not, in fact, in the Schengen Area, which has indeed abolished passport and border control at their mutual borders.

(Original post by nutz99)
our laws are no longer our own
The EU makes up between 14% and 17% of UK law. This can be found in around 5 seconds from a Google search. Stop spouting random, baseless garbage your parents have told you without at least first looking up if any of it is true.
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Alexion
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#65
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#65
(Original post by George VI)
A vote to remain is a vote for uncertainty.
This statement is so backwards...
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Alexion
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#66
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#66
(Original post by NoahMal)
staying in the EU will help EU students, leaving the EU will incurre larger uni fees for us EU students, we will have to pay around 17000 per year of uni fees... very very bad as nearly more EU students are going to uni in the UK than actual UK born.
At the rate we're going, home students will be paying that much before long :closedeyes:
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JNDSAN
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#67
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(Original post by Empyreal)
It's abundantly clear you're listing things which you have no idea about, so I ask you a few questions:
In what way do you believe security improves when we leave the EU?

Have you read a single economic report except the one done by 'Economists for Brexit', which turned out to be full of inconsistencies anyway?

How 'undemocratic' do you think the EU is, and then how 'democratic' do you think the UK is by comparison?



Now this is more like it.
Britons are finally realising that the UK hasn't been 'great' in 100 years and are upset that we no longer control half the world, so they think that by becoming 'sovereign' again, we'll somehow become more powerful.

During the industrial revolution, before we had competition, we were strong and powerful enough to be sovereign. Industry now makes up just 19% of our labour force; there's no way we can go back to the old days, and people are just bitter.

i dont have time for a long answer but no you're very much mistaken. The free movement of people also means that potential terrorists, (for your information the head of Interpol said there was at least 3000-5000 of them in the influx of migrants last year alone) can move freely and by the way, it also means weapons which you can buy for a pittance in the Balkans and Ukraine can be moved around and hey, used to massacre 130 people in place like, idk, where was it, paris?? Sir Richard Dearlove, former head of MI6 as well as many former generals made it very clear about the matter of security - it's really non debatable so i'll just link some articles you should take a glance at because its not complicated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35600736

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...chief-suggest/

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-05-25/s...o-back-brexit/

-Thats just for security, I'll write a part two
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JNDSAN
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#68
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#68
(Original post by Empyreal)
It's abundantly clear you're listing things which you have no idea about, so I ask you a few questions:
In what way do you believe security improves when we leave the EU?

Have you read a single economic report except the one done by 'Economists for Brexit', which turned out to be full of inconsistencies anyway?

How 'undemocratic' do you think the EU is, and then how 'democratic' do you think the UK is by comparison?



Now this is more like it.
Britons are finally realising that the UK hasn't been 'great' in 100 years and are upset that we no longer control half the world, so they think that by becoming 'sovereign' again, we'll somehow become more powerful.

During the industrial revolution, before we had competition, we were strong and powerful enough to be sovereign. Industry now makes up just 19% of our labour force; there's no way we can go back to the old days, and people are just bitter.
Part 2: again im not gonna write a lot of address all your points, but i'll do the fundamentals.

Firstly, I saw you said in another comment that "in a 5-10 second google search you can find that only 7-15% of our laws are from europe".

1.) you have issues of acting like a condescending prick and to make it worse you have no right to as you clearly dont seem too bright

2.) you may have been wise to have looked into this matter for more than a mere 5-10 seconds, any of the House of COmmons Library Briefings from Select Committees in the past five or so years or so will give a number of up to 15% for primary legislation and about 20% for secondary legisaltion, usually from statutory instruments - these however, are from EU DIRECTIVES AND DECISIONS. There is a difference between those and EU regulations, which any Select Committee from either the Commons or the Lords will tell you will make the overall number of legislation we follow from europe several times more than the 15/20% figure. Conservative estimates hover around 50%.

This is the fundamental point about democracy. If youre seriously asking me how undemocratic the EU is, thats fine by me, flaunt your ignorance, look it up, a 5-10 second google search actually would be enough to figure that one out but for how democractic OUR system is, ok the Westminster Model has its flaws, First Past the Post is a poor system, but there was a referendum in 2011 for AV and 65% said no. but you know the best part about the UK system? we know who our MPs are, because they all represent about 80 000 each compared to hundreds of thousands for the vast regions MEPs represent and after 5 years, we can kick them out! can we do that with EU commissioners? No, can you name any commissioners? No.

I cannot stand the argument that people for brexit are what youd descrive as little englanders , bitter at the loss of the empire. thats just a tedious, lazy and fallacious argument. I will be voting out on june 23 for among many reasons, the fundamental fact, that Diceyan orthodox of parliamentary soverignty, i.e. we make any law we want, no laws are more binding than others, and no one else can legislate over Westminster, which has ruled britain effectively since the mid 1600s and the brith of the modern parliament, has been destroyed by people i dont know, ive never voted for people who have this plan for a socialist federalist europe.

look up the judgements of a few court cases if youre so interested, Costa (ECJ) Factortame (ECJ) and Thoburn - if you want evidence to see that we are now very much at the mercy of Brussels, then go ahead and read - needless to say, you wont though - it'll always just be easier to shout people down, say they're racist Ukip supporteers, lilttle englanders etc etc etc
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Empyreal
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#69
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#69
(Original post by JNDSAN)
Part 2: again im not gonna write a lot of address all your points, but i'll do the fundamentals.

Firstly, I saw you said in another comment that "in a 5-10 second google search you can find that only 7-15% of our laws are from europe".

1.) you have issues of acting like a condescending prick and to make it worse you have no right to as you clearly dont seem too bright

2.) you may have been wise to have looked into this matter for more than a mere 5-10 seconds, any of the House of COmmons Library Briefings from Select Committees in the past five or so years or so will give a number of up to 15% for primary legislation and about 20% for secondary legisaltion, usually from statutory instruments - these however, are from EU DIRECTIVES AND DECISIONS. There is a difference between those and EU regulations, which any Select Committee from either the Commons or the Lords will tell you will make the overall number of legislation we follow from europe several times more than the 15/20% figure. Conservative estimates hover around 50%.

This is the fundamental point about democracy. If youre seriously asking me how undemocratic the EU is, thats fine by me, flaunt your ignorance, look it up, a 5-10 second google search actually would be enough to figure that one out but for how democractic OUR system is, ok the Westminster Model has its flaws, First Past the Post is a poor system, but there was a referendum in 2011 for AV and 65% said no. but you know the best part about the UK system? we know who our MPs are, because they all represent about 80 000 each compared to hundreds of thousands for the vast regions MEPs represent and after 5 years, we can kick them out! can we do that with EU commissioners? No, can you name any commissioners? No.

I cannot stand the argument that people for brexit are what youd descrive as little englanders , bitter at the loss of the empire. thats just a tedious, lazy and fallacious argument. I will be voting out on june 23 for among many reasons, the fundamental fact, that Diceyan orthodox of parliamentary soverignty, i.e. we make any law we want, no laws are more binding than others, and no one else can legislate over Westminster, which has ruled britain effectively since the mid 1600s and the brith of the modern parliament, has been destroyed by people i dont know, ive never voted for people who have this plan for a socialist federalist europe.

look up the judgements of a few court cases if youre so interested, Costa (ECJ) Factortame (ECJ) and Thoburn - if you want evidence to see that we are now very much at the mercy of Brussels, then go ahead and read - needless to say, you wont though - it'll always just be easier to shout people down, say they're racist Ukip supporteers, lilttle englanders etc etc etc
I was really going to fall for this bait and answer your arguments, but then you started with the ad hominem and, after having the nerve to call me 'not too bright', proceeded to ignore even the most basic rules of grammar to give me an incoherent mess of an argument.

The one point I'm compelled to mention is your assertion that I know no European Commissioners. Thank you for your patently false postulation.

On the other hand, without Google, I would love for you to list me out even 5% of our 650 MPs that you claim to know so well. In fact, I have serious doubts you could even name more than 5 cabinet ministers, Cameron and Osborne excluded.

Truly, each of your arguments sounds like you found it on page 4 of the Daily Mail.
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username878267
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#70
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#70
...to not have Boris johnson as Prime Minister.
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Jammy Duel
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#71
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#71
(Original post by Bornblue)
...to not have Boris johnson as Prime Minister.
You mean the man that will likely be pm if we remain?

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InnerTemple
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#72
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#72
(Original post by Jammy Duel)
You mean the man that will likely be pm if we remain?

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Can you really imagine the Tories letting Boris lead the party? At the moment, the conservatives have had a pretty good run in painting Corbyn as an oddball loony.

They'd have no right to do so should they have the moronic buffoon that is Boris as their leader.
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nutz99
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#73
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(Original post by Bornblue)
...to not have Boris johnson as Prime Minister.
As opposed to the pig shagging lying twunt that we have at the moment.
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MagicNMedicine
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#74
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Fair enough.
What do you think will be the result of this referendum. Also if remain win can you see a big Tory chunk heading to UKIP or will they sort out Their differences?
If pushed to make a prediction I'd say a remain win something like 54-46. However there's part of me that has a little sneaking suspicion that something will happen like the general election last year, and once the results start coming in we will realise that the polls have underestimated the "shy Leave" voters, and Leave will get a shock win. We will have to see.

I don't think any more Tories will head to UKIP. They will learn from the Douglas Carswell experience: they lose the Tory branding but end up in a party which is basically run in a very amateur fashion with a lot of internal divisions and backbiting.

If it is a narrow remain win like I said I think the divisions in the Tory party will stay raw and the Brexiters will be like the Scottish Nationalists after their referendum: they will continue to fight and argue the case. The issue for Remain is even after a referendum win the frustrations will remain with the EU, it just kicks the Eurozone crisis down the road all the time for it to reemerge without being solved, and the migrant crisis is a real serious problem for Europe which it hasn't got a grip on. The more and more the EU is exposed as too weak to deal with real issues, the more people will be frustrated and start talking about the next referendum, just like in Scotland.

In Scotland the vehicle for the second referendum will be for the SNP to significantly dominate politics there and crowd out Labour which has already started. in the UK the vehicle for the second EU ref will be for the Brexit wing to take control of the Conservative party and this is what they will seek to do.
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typonaut
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#75
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
1) the uncompetitive businesses aren't allowed to fail so they have higher prices mandated, e.g. with CAP, to keep in businesses that then drives up costs for other industries; 2) the high tariffs for those outside the EU means that the cheaper competition is also made too expensive to compete, so you have prices being made artificially high inside fortress Europe, and forces uncompetitively high for those outside fortress Europe. The EU is a protectionist racket, not the saviour of the consumer.
There is obviously a balance between different things going on here: do we want some food security (ie be assured of our supply) against how much do we want to pay for such. Or do we want farmers to be the "guardians" of the countryside, and are we prepared to subsidise them to do that?

I understand the point you are making. But there has also been a long standing subsidy to employers via low minimum wage levels and top-ups with social security payments.

At the same time I don't see many Brexiteers arguing that they are going to reduce farm subsidies - they are just saying that they will take the money going to Brussels and redistribute it themselves.
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typonaut
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#76
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
Then these same companies have the cheek to tax dodge.
I think you could be tarring the entirety of British business with the same brush.
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typonaut
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#77
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(Original post by Maker)
If there were tariffs, only the companies importing and exporting goods would pay rather than the whole population as it is now.
Well that's a nice idea, but it's really consumers that end up paying, and I think you'll find it fairly difficult to get by on goods that are 100% made in the UK.

I don't think there are many people that think tariffs are a good thing, most Brexiteers seem to think we're going to be in the single market (with no free movement regs) - no chance whatsoever - or will have negotiated a free trade deal.

I think the reality is that a regime with tariffs is a lot more likely.
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typonaut
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#78
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(Original post by Bornblue)
Also if remain win can you see a big Tory chunk heading to UKIP or will they sort out Their differences?
No, because they know that that would lose them a majority, and they know that UKIP will never be anything other than fringe.
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typonaut
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#79
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(Original post by JNDSAN)
i dont have time for a long answer but no you're very much mistaken. The free movement of people also means that potential terrorists, (for your information the head of Interpol said there was at least 3000-5000 of them in the influx of migrants last year alone) can move freely and by the way…
Here's the bad news: about 35 million people visited the UK last year - how many of them do you believe were vetted by UK security services? There are also around 60 countries whose citizens do not need visas in order to visit the UK.

Oh, and you might have heard of the internet - the terrorists have too. They don't need to travel, you will see that most of those involved in terrorists plots are actually nationals of the states they are arrested in. Even with those involved in the recent Paris attacks, Brussels is a short drive away - with or without border controls.

it also means weapons which you can buy for a pittance in the Balkans and Ukraine can be moved around and hey, used to massacre 130 people in place like, idk, where was it, paris??
Those guns also end up in the UK, these are just some that were found:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35690189

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-security.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33564341
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JNDSAN
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#80
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#80
(Original post by typonaut)
Here's the bad news: about 35 million people visited the UK last year - how many of them do you believe were vetted by UK security services? There are also around 60 countries whose citizens do not need visas in order to visit the UK.

Oh, and you might have heard of the internet - the terrorists have too. They don't need to travel, you will see that most of those involved in terrorists plots are actually nationals of the states they are arrested in. Even with those involved in the recent Paris attacks, Brussels is a short drive away - with or without border controls.



Those guns also end up in the UK, these are just some that were found:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35690189

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-security.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33564341

totally facetious argument - if you arrive by air you wont be bringing any weapons in will you, if you drive with a car stocked with Ak47s and get on a ferry you're almost guaranteed not to get checked - those coming from europe can do that.
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