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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this Watch

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    So ironic that brexiters harp on about wanting democracy. How about you resolve the issue regarding the first past the post system of voting and then worry about the EU?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Doesn't matter if they 'respect' it. It's enshrined in law. Any member of the EU can veto Turkish membership and many including us and Germany have said they would.

    The EU can do nothing.

    The levels of paranoia amongst Breixters is astonishing.
    The EU has simply decided to ignore vetos in history, like Holland's veto of Ukraine. They made Ireland and another country vote twice on a referendum because the first result wasn't the one the EU wanted.

    To quote Juncker -
    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

    and

    “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”
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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    So ironic that brexiters harp on about wanting democracy. How about you resolve the issue regarding the first past the post system of voting and then worry about the EU?
    How about we fix the EU issue, then FPTP?
    The point is it wouldn't matter how perfect our voting system was so long as the EU still held unelected authority over the UK. The first step to acheiving democratic reform is leaving the EU.

    I can tell you care about democracy, and about better representation so I wholly encourage you to join the rest of the democrats and vote to leave.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    How about we fix the EU issue, then FPTP?
    The point is it wouldn't matter how perfect our voting system was so long as the EU still held unelected authority over the UK. The first step to acheiving democratic reform is leaving the EU.

    I can tell you care about democracy, and about better representation so I wholly encourage you to join the rest of the democrats and vote to leave.
    Let me firstly set my context straight. I agree with the Brexiteers that the European Union has an awful record of democracy and a serious democratic deficit - and I believe in further democratisation of the European Union - but I do not believe that the EU's democratic deficit is a sufficient reason to leave the European Union.

    Firstly, if I could come back to Turkey. In order to join the European Union, Turkey needs to meet 35 requirements; it has met a mere 13 of them. It is not conceivable that Turkey would join the EU at any point in the near future. You even talked about the rejected referenda - they were rejected because the 'No' campaigns to those treaties emphasised the point that voting 'Yes' meant supporting Turkey accession to the European Union. These referenda happened eleven years ago, so eleven years ago they were scaremongering about Turkey joining the EU. It hasn't happened in the past eleven years, nor will it happen in the next eleven years. This is a scaremongering argument that has absolutely no basis, no fruit and that makes the 'Leave' campaign seem desperate. Not to mention the fact that Turkey has been the single most important ally of NATO during the Cold War and in the continuing conflict in the Middle East in recent decades.

    If you have time to read it, the Liberal Democrats posted a very enlightening rebuttal to the Turkey argument posed by UKIP during that controversial video. It is well-written and very informative; you may be interested.

    Secondly, now, yes. The European Union has a severe democratic deficit - and I agree with you that it makes a deceased mockery of the peoples of Europe how elected MEPs cannot initiate laws but merely act upon laws initiated by unelected Commissioners. I am strongly in favour of liberal, democratic reforms to the European Union to counter this. Cameron had a chance to enact these reforms and he failed to do so.

    I reject, however, that these reforms cannot happen. There is a hunger in Brussels for these reforms; listening to politicians and parties like Guy Verhofstadt, ALDE, the EPP and I dare say the new anti-austerity parties like Syriza and Podemos is ample proof that most of the establishment is in fact in favour of enacting democratising reforms to the European Union. The possibility of reform therefore exists in Brussels.

    I also reject, however, that it is Brussels that is to blame for the democratic deficit. If you read Nick Clegg's argument in the Orange Book, he argues that there is no European demos (voter base) because turnout to the European Parliament elections is usually under 50%. Because there is no European demos, the European Parliament has no democratic mandate, and because it has no democratic mandate, he argues that the unelected Commissioners - appointed by national governments which instead do have a democratic mandate - have to be more powerful than the elected MEPs.

    This argument illustrates the problem with EU democracy: it is not that Brussels doesn't want a European democracy, but that the peoples of Europe haven't bothered turning up to build one. The democratising reforms of the EU don't need to come from Brussels and be inside-out; they need to come from the voter at home and be outside-in.

    This means improving turnout to elections, holding MEPs to account and voting for parties that are interested in EU democratisation - not returning 24 UKIP MEPs who have the worst attendance ratings of the European Parliament and, on the few occasions that they do bother to turn up to the Parliament to serve their constituents, usually give meaningless diatribes about EU corruption rather than contributing positively to the discussion in the rest of the Parliament.

    Yet the parties interested in EU democratisation are primarily represented by Labour, the SDLP, the Liberal Democrats and APNI - parties that the UK electorate will never vote for wholly as a result of national political history and considerations. Democratisation of the European Union therefore would require a separation between national and European politics as well.

    The point is, therefore, that the EU is not sufficiently democratic not because Brussels has prevented democratic reforms, but because it has had no mandate to enact these democratic reforms.

    I won't defend the conduct of the EU during the referenda - that was undemocratic and awful. Nonetheless, I do argue that the democratic deficit in the European Union isn't the fault of Brussels, but the fault of the peoples of Europe themselves. The opportunity for reform does exist; the hunger for reform already exists; we just need the hunger to manifest itself at the polling stations as much as it is manifested in Brussels.

    In any case, this over-obsession about the European Union's democratic deficit is frankly bizarre. The UK is party to many international agreements - the WTO, NATO, the Council of Europe, the UN, etc. - in which it has unelected representatives. At least with the European Union there is an election for MEPs with some legislative power. In this regard, it is not sufficient a reason to say that we should leave the EU because it is undemocratic: by that reasoning, we should leave all of these international agreements, which are by far even worse in terms of democratic deficit. Heck, it makes Farage's argument seem very hypocritical: let's leave the slightly-democratic EU and join the entirely-undemocratic WTO!

    This isn't to excuse the EU's democratic deficit - no. I think it's awful. It is to argue, however, that democratising reforms can be enacted and that there is a hunger in Brussels for them to be enacted - and it is to argue that democracy alone is not a sufficient reason by itself to leave the European Union.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    The EU has simply decided to ignore vetos in history, like Holland's veto of Ukraine. They made Ireland and another country vote twice on a referendum because the first result wasn't the one the EU wanted.

    To quote Juncker -
    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

    and

    “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”
    To save the reputation of Jean-Claude Juncker, he is a European federalist who is committed to deeper European integration. The UK in fact opposed his candidature because he wanted to put more power in the EU in order to build a more powerful Europe.

    I'd like to add some context to your quotes, if that's okay, which have been taken somehwat out-of-context:

    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious...I am for secret, dark debates"

    Jean-Claude Juncker did not say this regarding the future of the European Union - he said this regarding discussions of the eurozone markets in order to promote stability in the eurozone following the economic collapse and instability in 2011. There is nothing sincere or ominous about this: the UK government and the Bank of England do this too, as do most governments worldwide. They discuss behind closed doors so that the markets can't speculate so that the UK economy is stronger (source).

    "If it's a 'Yes', we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'"

    This is appalling and indefensible, regarding the 2005 French referendum, for which the EU should be shamed.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    The EU has simply decided to ignore vetos in history, like Holland's veto of Ukraine. They made Ireland and another country vote twice on a referendum because the first result wasn't the one the EU wanted.

    To quote Juncker -
    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

    and

    “If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue’,”
    No it cannot. The EU Cannot admit any state unless every state agrees. They can not simply ignore a veto. They can apply political pressure but they cannot overrule a veto.
    Ukraine is not in the EU and cannot be unless every state agrees. Ireland were bro ignored, they voted to accept.

    Stop scaremongering. Turkey are not joining. Besides Germany don't want them to join and have said they will veto. I thought the EU was a German superstate?


    Again, why let facts get in the way of your argument?

    The EU cannot and will not accept a state unless every country either agrees or abstains.

    The scaremongering coming from the Brexiters has been truly astonishing. You're just resorting to outright lies like this.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    We and every other member has a veto on turkeys membership but why let the facts get in the way of a brexiters argument?

    David Cameron has been saying since 2005 Turkey should join, and declaring his support for their full membership. We do have a veto, but the government isn't going to use it
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It's fake opportunism to see right wing Tories speak of saving our NHS when they wish to privatise large chunks of it.

    It's the type of SJW nonsense associated with the far left.
    What will we likely see with £9bn or so freed up, assuming the money the EU tells us how to spend is spent in the same way? I would expect cutting the 5% tax rate on some things such as utilities and sanitary products, which by my estimation should cost no more than £2bn, a few billion into the NHS, a few billion into a general tax cut.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I don't buy into the 'let's retake sovereignty' crap.
    We live in a globalized world. Any deal we sign will involve giving up sovereignty unless we want to live in our own isolated enclave.

    I also like a great deal of the laws the EU makes such as workers protections and health and safety guidelines which I am far from convinced that a Tory government will uphold.

    I like working with our European neighbors. I like a world moving closer together. I like freedom of movement.

    It's not perfect no, but better to be a part of it than not. If we had a centre left progressive government then maybe i'd consider out. But instead we have uber right wing Boris Johnson in the waiting.
    So don't vote for a Tory government, it's like people view this as beyond choice, we should be reclaiming democracy and then making our feelings felt including at the ballot box. And Japan? Australia? NZ? They don't do very well sovereign?
    Regarding globalization, actually the indicators are that when we have to rebalance our economy, fossil fuels are gone, climate change has really reworked the world, that we will end up reversing that and becoming much more localized again, because we won't consume energy in the same way anymore.
    And as for looking outwards, well, we did it very successfully outside the EU, we were an d still are far more outward, and not to mention used to immigrants and cultures from elsewhere, than Europe, we had and still have the whole English speaking commonwealth. The EU is not outward looking, it is full of provincial nationalisms, racisms and economic protectionism. Asian economies are much more prosperous, nothing about the EU fits with our historical traditions of Burkean conservatism, distrust of centralised power and love of individual liberty, including the way we never really cared for religious fervour, or totalitarianism. We will be tied to this thing forever more if we don't leave, and as climate change really kicks in, southern Europe will produce, maybe not even economic migrants, but refugees on a large scale, to add to the rest. It will be even more of an economic basket case.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    So don't vote for a Tory government, it's like people view this as beyond choice, we should be reclaiming democracy and then making our feelings felt including at the ballot box. And Japan? Australia? NZ? They don't do very well sovereign?
    Regarding globalization, actually the indicators are that when we have to rebalance our economy, fossil fuels are gone, climate change has really reworked the world, that we will end up reversing that and becoming much more localized again, because we won't consume energy in the same way anymore.
    And as for looking outwards, well, we did it very successfully outside the EU, we were an d still are far more outward, and not to mention used to immigrants and cultures from elsewhere, than Europe, we had and still have the whole English speaking commonwealth. The EU is not outward looking, it is full of provincial nationalisms, racisms and economic protectionism. Asian economies are much more prosperous, nothing about the EU fits with our historical traditions of Burkean conservatism, distrust of centralised power and love of individual liberty, including the way we never really cared for religious fervour, or totalitarianism. We will be tied to this thing forever more if we don't leave, and as climate change really kicks in, southern Europe will produce, maybe not even economic migrants, but refugees on a large scale, to add to the rest. It will be even more of an economic basket case.
    I like the EU.
    It gives us protections that a Tory government would not. I like freedom of movement and free trade.

    Without the EU a Tory government is free to shred the rights and protections given to us by the EU.

    No thanks.

    I care about workers rights and economic security more than I care about an abstract right to sovereignty.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I like the EU.
    It gives us protections that a Tory government would not. I like freedom of movement and free trade.

    Without the EU a Tory government is free to shred the rights and protections given to us by the EU.

    No thanks.

    I care about workers rights and economic security more than I care about an abstract right to sovereignty.
    Where's the reasoning in that you don't trust a removeable government to keep you safe, but you trust an unremoveable one to do so?
    The tories have their hands tied by the fact they won't get elected again if they do all the things you're worried about but the EU commission has no such limitation.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I like the EU.
    It gives us protections that a Tory government would not. I like freedom of movement and free trade.

    Without the EU a Tory government is free to shred the rights and protections given to us by the EU.

    No thanks.

    I care about workers rights and economic security more than I care about an abstract right to sovereignty.
    Is this Groundhog day? These are the same arguments, I've already had this argument so many times. So we give up on our own democracy, that whilst in the worst period of it's history(within the EU I may add), and democracy/capitalism is in global crisis,has a long and uniquely successful history and a successful potential future, because we give up on the left in our own country to deliver anything, or voting for them, and give up on our own democracy in the mean while we media dictate opinion to us, and perversely believe that we can't vote for progressive or leftist governments because they are not credible, and we only hope to get these measure from an unnaccountable undemocratic superstate, which on a whim could give you any number of measure you don't want in the future, against your will, and it WILL give you TTIP against your will. You have a democratic voice in the UK, stop cynical governments doing what they do. Do not give up on our democracy, you will regret it. What workers rights are there when American corporations bid for a our public services and sue anyone who opposes it, and we have in deal in return? What economic security is there in a country that will have a wide open door to floods of low wage labour, creating an economy of serfdom with a huge underclass of people who are priced out by these wages and can't afford housing or food- that right there, years more of it, the low wage economy healping th rich get richer and the poor get poorer, overpopulating our country is a recipe for total anarchy and violent social breakdown. Add to this the further collapse of southern Europe which will happen in the coming years of accelerated climate change(did you see the last polar winter figures?) How much more of a fantasy world can you remainers live in?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Where's the reasoning in that you don't trust a removeable government to keep you safe, but you trust an unremoveable one to do so?
    The tories have their hands tied by the fact they won't get elected again if they do all the things you're worried about but the EU commission has no such limitation.
    I compare what the Tories have done to what the EU has done. The EU has some very progressive policies and regulations on workers rights, climate change and health and safety.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Is this Groundhog day? These are the same arguments, I've already had this argument so many times. So we give up on our own democracy, that whilst in the worst period of it's history(within the EU I may add), and democracy/capitalism is in global crisis,has a long and uniquely successful history and a successful potential future, because we give up on the left in our own country to deliver anything, or voting for them, and give up on our own democracy in the mean while we media dictate opinion to us, and perversely believe that we can't vote for progressive or leftist governments because they are not credible, and we only hope to get these measure from an unnaccountable undemocratic superstate, which on a whim could give you any number of measure you don't want in the future, against your will, and it WILL give you TTIP against your will. You have a democratic voice in the UK, stop cynical governments doing what they do. Do not give up on our democracy, you will regret it. What workers rights are there when American corporations bid for a our public services and sue anyone who opposes it, and we have in deal in return? What economic security is there in a country that will have a wide open door to floods of low wage labour, creating an economy of serfdom with a huge underclass of people who are priced out by these wages and can't afford housing or food- that right there, years more of it, the low wage economy healping th rich get richer and the poor get poorer, overpopulating our country is a recipe for total anarchy and violent social breakdown. Add to this the further collapse of southern Europe which will happen in the coming years of accelerated climate change(did you see the last polar winter figures?) How much more of a fantasy world can you remainers live in?
    You're too idealistic. The Tories will privatise the NHS anyway regardless of TTIp as they have been doing.

    Think pragmatically. I care more about workers rights than 'democracy'.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You're too idealistic. The Tories will privatise the NHS anyway regardless of TTIp as they have been doing.

    Think pragmatically. I care more about workers rights than 'democracy'.
    OMG! YES!

    the eu invented human rights lol so ummm have fun being enslaved by david cameron when you leave
    only the eu is stopping cameron from privatising EVERYONE
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You're too idealistic. The Tories will privatise the NHS anyway regardless of TTIp as they have been doing.

    Think pragmatically. I care more about workers rights than 'democracy'.
    Really? So you'd accept something like an autocracy that temporarily gave you want you wanted over a long term say via more democracy?
    And why do people keep acting like we can't affect our own democracy? We can. We choose to put in Blair after Iraq and the NHS, and we chose to with Tories this time. We choose to say if Corbyn is not credible, we chopose if we follow the media line. It's just nonsense to say we can't think for ourselves and shape our own democracy and future. What you're making is an argument for the abnegation of responsibility, kind of like a hoping benevolent EU 'governments' thoigh they are not elected, will look out for you without it being about your say. It's like you're looking at the spirit of individual liberty that founded the whole anglosphere and was distinctly British, made it so vastly successful while Europe was about to descend into hell, and you're saying, let's not choose the former, let's choose the latter.

    And idealism is the whole point of politics, the sole reason for anyone to be interested, not soulless bean counting, administrators. I'm sick of this so-called pragmatism, which is all based on fear, timidity, short termism, lack of vision, and seemingly wanting to live constricted(alternatively 'cared for') on this treadmill, in permanent limbo while we never make any clean breaks nor do one thing nor the other. This is a long way from the country that built all the success stories of the world. No reason why we can't have that again, but not with these attitudes that are defeatist, and for no logical reason.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I like the EU.
    It gives us protections that a Tory government would not. I like freedom of movement and free trade.

    Without the EU a Tory government is free to shred the rights and protections given to us by the EU.

    No thanks.

    I care about workers rights and economic security more than I care about an abstract right to sovereignty.
    You still seem incapable of getting it through your thick skull that the evidence would suggest these things WILL be protected. If they wouldn't then why did so many of the rights the EU allegedly protect exist before they mandated them? Why is it that Britain is ahead of the EU requirements? Why is it that we have a seat on the international bodies that suggest these rules in the first place, before the EU takes credit?

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    (Original post by Brusselsknowbest)
    OMG! YES!

    the eu invented human rights lol so ummm have fun being enslaved by david cameron when you leave
    only the eu is stopping cameron from privatising EVERYONE
    Not sure how you privatise an individual...

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You still seem incapable of getting it through your thick skull that the evidence would suggest these things WILL be protected. If they wouldn't then why did so many of the rights the EU allegedly protect exist before they mandated them? Why is it that Britain is ahead of the EU requirements? Why is it that we have a seat on the international bodies that suggest these rules in the first place, before the EU takes credit?

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    Ouch. I can also do personal digs. Your skull seems quite thick too, just ask oxford.

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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Really? So you'd accept something like an autocracy that temporarily gave you want you wanted over a long term say via more democracy?
    And why do people keep acting like we can't affect our own democracy? We can. We choose to put in Blair after Iraq and the NHS, and we chose to with Tories this time. We choose to say if Corbyn is not credible, we chopose if we follow the media line. It's just nonsense to say we can't think for ourselves and shape our own democracy and future. What you're making is an argument for the abnegation of responsibility, kind of like a hoping benevolent EU 'governments' thoigh they are not elected, will look out for you without it being about your say. It's like you're looking at the spirit of individual liberty that founded the whole anglosphere and was distinctly British, made it so vastly successful while Europe was about to descend into hell, and you're saying, let's not choose the former, let's choose the latter.

    And idealism is the whole point of politics, the sole reason for anyone to be interested, not soulless bean counting, administrators. I'm sick of this so-called pragmatism, which is all based on fear, timidity, short termism, lack of vision, and seemingly wanting to live constricted(alternatively 'cared for') on this treadmill, in permanent limbo while we never make any clean breaks nor do one thing nor the other. This is a long way from the country that built all the success stories of the world. No reason why we can't have that again, but not with these attitudes that are defeatist, and for no logical reason.
    I'd rather have less sovereignty and better living standards and workers rights, than give a far right tory government control to shred them.
    If prefer a great autocracy in which everyone prospered to an awful democracy.


    I don't trust the tories, nor do I trust the public. I trust legally enforceable workers rights though.

    Your vision will give even more control to a far right tory government. No thanks.


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