Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Very Important Poster
    Online

    19
    Very Important Poster
    Be glad when its over and everyone shuts up about it or back to Muslim bashing.
    Offline

    5
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    If you mean "do I believe in taxation?" then, yes, I do. I also believe in insurance and other such things I spend my money on.

    If I objected to paying taxes, I'd go somewhere I didn't have to, it's not that difficult.
    Are you describing a dictatorship? It just sounds to me you don't value freedom as much as I do and you obviously do not want people to have the freedom of choice at all.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SHBKhan)
    Your stance on the daunting EU referendum in one sentence.
    If you did not elect them into power, and cannot remove them from power then you do not have a voice or demeocracy.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    "When Gove, Ian Duncan Smith, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are the faces of your campaign, you know it's a *****y campaign following *****y hypocritical ideals"
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    In the European Parliament representatives can vote for or against legislation; they cannot propose legislation, they have no legislative initiative. They can't propose, amend or repeal legislation.

    Only the European Commission can propose, amend or repeal legislation. But remember also, that our representative works in the EU's interest, not ours
    Are you kidding me? okay, deep breaths...

    Democracy is a spectrum, there are many types direct and indirect, liberal and socialist, proportional and disproportional, federal and unitary, majoritarian and minoritarian. No political entity on earth today or in history can claim to be 'fully' democratic in absolute terms and you cannot just stamp the EU as undemocratic because the parliament lacks formal legislative initiative. That's absolute ridiculous. That would be suggesting the UK is simply undemocratic because half of parliament is not elected by it's citizens (indirect) or because its voting system ignores the will of millions of voters (disproportional). Or because the will of the minority (majoritarian) is ignored. Why? because if you define what an electoral democracy is, it does pass many features and so does the EU. The UK is democratic, with some undemocratic features and the EU is democratic with some undemocratic features.

    The EU parliament does not need to have legislative initiative and lacking it is not the nail in the coffin to define an electoral liberal democracy. Firstly it does have the power to amend and reject legislation, it is written in the EU treaties and a simple google search would give you countless examples.

    It also can propose legislation through resolutions and the Commission can decide whether to act on that resolution. Let us go through a thought experiment. If your waiter proposes to bring you beans on toast and you say no, she then proposes beans with egg and you reply no bring me beans with sausages and she complies. Are you seriously suggesting you lack control over what dinner you have? What if she then threatens to bring beans on toast and you with the power threaten to withdraw her pay (EU parliament can block Commission spending plans) if she does not comply and she does. Yes she might have the power to propose what dinner you have, but at the end of the process you get what you want because you can amend, reject or threaten a no-win scenario for her and thus you are highly highly likely to get what you want in the end. This is exactly the position the EU parliament is in.


    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    The EU is undemocratic because in the EU there are the European Parliament and the European Commission.
    In the European Parliament there are UK representatives working in our interest.
    In the European Commission there is an UK representative bound by oath to work in the EU's interest.
    Sorry and so what? The European citizens elected the EU parliament and the EU Commission President is the candidate, who campaigned alongside the other rival candidates elected by their own European parties during the election and is from the winning European parliamentary party The Commission President chooses, like the UK Prime Minister, who will get what Commission job out of the 27 people proposed by the 27 elected governments. The whole Commission is approved or rejected by the parliament in a formal vote.

    So then, the final Commission is not only led by someone who is elected like the UK Prime Minister, its members are selected by elected governments AND it has been approved by the directly elected parliament. WHAT ELSE DO YOU WANT?!*

    They, the EU parliament and Commission then vow to defend the European Union and its citizens. So what? you do not want them to defend the 500 million people it is responsible for? That's like getting upset the UK parliament and government looks after British interest and the Scottish parliament and government looks after Scottish interest. AKA as doing their bloody job. Christ sake.

    Lastly, in whose interest are you talking about? because like any election, one's person in Britain will be wanting socialist policies and want the UK and EU to tax the rich more. Another Brit may want the UK and EU to tax the rich less and vote Conservatives. The idea that there is a monolithic British interest is not true. David Cameron may represent the UK externally in a diplomatic fashion, but he is a politician and thus politically he is a Conservative and fights for Britain with Centre-Right policies. Many I passionately think are hurting the UK and EU.

    I'm done.

    *The only thing you can ask for is the 27 other Commissioners must be MEP's and thus the EU will finally become a fully fledged semi-parliamentary system.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by leinad2012)
    "When Gove, Ian Duncan Smith, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are the faces of your campaign, you know it's a *****y campaign following *****y hypocritical ideals"
    That's on the premise all leave supporters have consistent reasoning.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RasputinReborn)
    "We the people" are going to stay in the EU, and I think you're aware of that too. Yes, it's admittedly difficult to start up companies, but at the end of the day, we're getting reduced prices as a result of the free trade with these big EU corporations, and if we were to move out, think of all the extra tax added to goods, and especially food. Many of the corporations have set up jobs here, because it's more convenient and cheaper, since we're in the EU. If we're not, jobs will be gone, resulting in more unemployed, and so an even higher welfare budget, which increases the deficit and increase tax rates too. You can argue about corporations not having to innovate, but at the end of the day, what's more important, providing thousands of jobs, or providing a dozen new products every year? This brexit campaign is a recipe for disaster, without a worthy trade off, at least we'll get a reformed EU, you'll seemingly get an isolated and an even more economically deprived Britain.
    You are aware the majority of the 20% VAT that goes to the EU right? Your 100 pound headphones just became £120 . £20 for the EU coffers...(Who do you think is paying the EU Bureaucrats extortionate salaries and benefits/bonuses?)

     Over the seven years from 2007-13, the UK paid over £15.4 billion in VAT contributions to the EU, an average of £2.2 billion a year. This amounts to just under 18 per cent of the EU’s annual VAT revenue, despite the UK population being only 13 per cent of the EU whole

    .1 The VAT contribution per capita in the UK is £246 in total in 2007-13. This is £78 morethan the average for the EU population. The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast that the UK’s VAT contributions tothe EU budget will rise by 32 per cent from 2013-14 to 2019-20

    . The European Commission’s proposals to abolish zero and reduced rates for VAT would have cost the average UK household £1,697 in 2007-13, according to HM Treasury VAT receipts.2 Basic food cost increases represent £629 of this.

     Despite ongoing campaigns, the UK Government is currently unable to reduce VAT on energy bills, charity donations and other commodities and services without EU Commission approval.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    You are aware the majority of the 20% VAT that goes to the EU right? Your 100 pound headphones just became £120 . £20 for the EU coffers...(Who do you think is paying the EU Bureaucrats extortionate salaries and benefits/bonuses?)

     Over the seven years from 2007-13, the UK paid over £15.4 billion in VAT contributions to the EU, an average of £2.2 billion a year. This amounts to just under 18 per cent of the EU’s annual VAT revenue, despite the UK population being only 13 per cent of the EU whole

    .1 The VAT contribution per capita in the UK is £246 in total in 2007-13. This is £78 morethan the average for the EU population. The Office for Budget Responsibility has forecast that the UK’s VAT contributions tothe EU budget will rise by 32 per cent from 2013-14 to 2019-20

    . The European Commission’s proposals to abolish zero and reduced rates for VAT would have cost the average UK household £1,697 in 2007-13, according to HM Treasury VAT receipts.2 Basic food cost increases represent £629 of this.

     Despite ongoing campaigns, the UK Government is currently unable to reduce VAT on energy bills, charity donations and other commodities and services without EU Commission approval.
    UK VAT revenues for the past 5 years have been £73-88 billion according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-...nited_Kingdom)

    Please explain to me how 2.2 billion a year is "the majority" of VAT? Even your 15.4 billion for the five years wouldn't be the majority of a single year's VAT.

    Also you're aware that VAT is proportionate to spending/purchasing right? I would assume the reason it's much higher in the UK than the rest is because we're shopaholics.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    UK VAT revenues for the past 5 years have been £73-88 billion according to wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-...nited_Kingdom)

    Please explain to me how 2.2 billion a year is "the majority" of VAT? Even your 15.4 billion for the five years wouldn't be the majority of a single year's VAT.

    Also you're aware that VAT is proportionate to spending/purchasing right? I would assume the reason it's much higher in the UK than the rest is because we're shopaholics.
    EU rules state that UK VATrates cannot be lowered below an EU harmonised standard rate of 15% or adjusted on specificgoods without approval of the Commission
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    EU rules state that UK VATrates cannot be lowered below an EU harmonised standard rate of 15% or adjusted on specificgoods without approval of the Commission
    That is correct, hence why I didn't disagree with that part of your post. They can be 15% minimum, or 5% if they are a specific good (some of which are required to be 5%). The UK is an exception to this in that we have 0% VAT on some goods, but cannot add new goods to this 0% list, only 5%.

    The part of your post about the EU minimum VAT rate being correct does not change the fact that the rest of what you said was completely incorrect.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elivercury)
    That is correct, hence why I didn't disagree with that part of your post. They can be 15% minimum, or 5% if they are a specific good (some of which are required to be 5%). The UK is an exception to this in that we have 0% VAT on some goods, but cannot add new goods to this 0% list, only 5%.

    The part of your post about the EU minimum VAT rate being correct does not change the fact that the rest of what you said was completely incorrect.
    Thats fine i just wanted to inform the pro EU poster who didnt seem to be aware that the EU does not get its money from trees
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Thats fine i just wanted to inform the pro EU poster who didnt seem to be aware that the EU does not get its money from trees
    It doesn't you're correct. Whether it's worth the amount is one of personal opinion really, and likely depends on how much you benefit personally. Much like taxes actually...
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you like to hibernate through the winter months?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.