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Why do leave voters keep saying the EU is undemocratic? Watch

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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    And the Parliament can block every single proposal and bring the whole system to a standstill if they choose to. They don't. The Commission only exists with the consent of the Parliament.
    You really think the psychology works like that?

    And that would require unity and collaboration between representatives / MEPs. You really expect too much of people in this regard.

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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    1a) The UK only has 73 MEPs.
    1b) There are altogether 751 MEPs.
    1c) The UK only has 9.72% of the voting power. (73 / 751 x 100)
    1d) The UK population constitutes 12.74% of the EU population.

    Source 1, 2 & 3

    2a) MEPs can't repeal or amend legislation.
    2b) MEPs can't propose legislation; MEPs don't have the right to legislative initiative.
    2c) The EC has one member per member state, but each member is bound by oath to represent the interest of the EU; not its state.
    2d) On the premise that the UK's European Commissioner represented the UK's interest (which it doesn't), that's not representative for the UK's population size.

    Seemingly possible counter-arguments...
    1) The UK has an unelected monarchy, and laws require Royal Assent.
    2) The UK has an unelected House of Lords.
    3) The UK has low turnout rates for MEPs.

    Criticism of those seemingly possible counter-arguments...
    1) Royal Assent has a track record of just being a formality.
    2) The House of Lords can only delay non-finance-related legislation for up to a year. The House of Lords is a revision chamber, and the UK has more pressing concerns about its quite democratic system.
    3) I acknowledge that the UK would have more influence if turnout rates were higher, but that doesn't discount the democratic deficit in the EU. (I hope I've used the phrase "democratic deficit" in the correct context here.)

    Feel free to dispute what I said.

    Inb4 you used Wikipedia as a source?
    Inb4 it doesn't matter

    If you think democracy doesn't matter, where hast thou principles!?!?
    I would add that when we joined, our MEP's made up like 19% of the vote ... We have grown bigger and stronger compared to most EU countries yet our say has more than halved... and will continue to erode as new countries join
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    You really think the psychology works like that?

    And that would require unity and collaboration between representatives / MEPs. You really expect too much of people in this regard.

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    Not in reality. It was in response to the point made that the Commission has no obligation to listen to the Parliament highlighting that it works both ways. I hope if we remain that the knock-on effect of the referendum is to increase the vote at European Elections, if anything affects our influence then it's this. The problem at the moment is that only UKIP voters turn out in full and their MEP's don't fully participate.

    Very rarely do the Mail and the Guardian agree on things.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/dat...rty-parliament

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-turn-up.html

    Look at this as well. They're an embarrassment.

    http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/p...oster-20150408
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    It gets called undemocratic largely because the commission holds the most legislative power, and there's only like 28 commissioners making those decisions for the however many million people living in the EU.

    Things have improved a bit because the original procedure for passing law in the EU basically bypassed parliament completely. The newer and more commonly used procedure involved parliament more and they get more of a say in what legislation passes.

    Also gets called undemocratic because most of us don't even know who our MEPs are, which isn't exactly a great sign (from what I remember most of the UK's MEPs are actually members of UKIP, ironically).

    If any of this is wrong I apologise, The EU being undemocratic is a point to make for the OCR law exam so I thought I'd contribute what I remember 😊
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    (Original post by Noodle0)
    What a fantastic video
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    (Original post by Gold-Confetti)
    It gets called undemocratic largely because the commission holds the most legislative power, and there's only like 28 commissioners making those decisions for the however many million people living in the EU.

    Things have improved a bit because the original procedure for passing law in the EU basically bypassed parliament completely. The newer and more commonly used procedure involved parliament more and they get more of a say in what legislation passes.

    Also gets called undemocratic because most of us don't even know who our MEPs are, which isn't exactly a great sign (from what I remember most of the UK's MEPs are actually members of UKIP, ironically).

    If any of this is wrong I apologise, The EU being undemocratic is a point to make for the OCR law exam so I thought I'd contribute what I remember 😊
    UKIP are the largest represented UK party and are more interested in being disruptive than anything else. One UKIP MEP openly admitted on QT that they helped block a bill to introduce tariffs on Chinese steel intended to protect European Industry on the principle of not giving the EU any more power at all, despite agreeing with the need for tariffs.

    They then use the regulations on state aid preventing a rescue as a means to attack the EU.

    That's my rant for the day.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    UKIP are the largest represented UK party and are more interested in being disruptive than anything else. One UKIP MEP openly admitted on QT that they helped block a bill to introduce tariffs on Chinese steel intended to protect European Industry on the principle of not giving the EU any more power at all, despite agreeing with the need for tariffs.

    They then use the regulations on state aid preventing a rescue as a means to attack the EU.

    That's my rant for the day.

    I watched a documentary on this a while ago, interesting stuff. Typical UKIP behaviour unfortunately. I find it's easier to laugh about how stupid it all is so as to avoid the horrifying reality of the situation 😂
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    The UK Cabinet represents a government and has to deliver on a manifesto on which its MPs were elected. The government (made up of MPs) has to submit itself to periodic re-election where they are held accountable for the delivery of their manifesto.

    If Cabinet Ministers underperform or behave inappropriately they are removed by the PM, because of the democratic pressure of having to seek re-election.

    Commissioners don't face any democratic pressure or accountability and they don't submit a manifesto of things they want to achieve which is decided on by the public.

    Well, that last part isn't strictly true. The Commission can be dismissed by Parliament. There is also a process to remove Commissioners if they act inappropriately.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Because our MEPs can't propose, repeal or amend legislation?
    They can propose amendments and reject legislation.

    Proposing is by the Commission.

    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    That means we don't have a representative in the EC working in our interest.

    Are they even a representative of ours any longer? They're more a representative of the EU then.
    They are a representative of the EU. They are creating laws for the EU. It doesn't make any sense having someone creating laws for France at the EU commission level.

    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    I thought I said they can only delay legislation and that they can only delay legislation not related to finance?
    They can reject legislation.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, that last part isn't strictly true. The Commission can be dismissed by Parliament. There is also a process to remove Commissioners if they act inappropriately.
    The Commission can only be dismissed as a whole bloc which is such a big sanction it is hardly ever going to be used as you aren't going to dismiss the whole Commission for one poor performer.

    Also you need the European Court of Justice to remove Commissioners which is fair enough if they have committed fraud etc but this does not give the democratic pressure that is on the UK Cabinet.

    Another problem is the MEPs are not directly elected, they are appointed from a party list system, so they don't directly face accountability from their constituents, they are basically accountable to the party. I appreciate that this is a trade off for having a more proportional system than the UK parliament.
 
 
 
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