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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Young people vote for hope, the old for fear.
    Hope is not always justified, nor fear unjustified.

    The young have the most to fear, but the least understanding.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    Not brainwashed no..

    But its easily understandable when you consider:

    Young people have a huge tendancy to be idealistic. Its why many many more are left-wing then right wing. They still look at the best in everything, and see perfect scenarios.

    They have (mostly) not had the same hard life experiances that have turned adults into cynical and self-serving.

    Young peoples interests are everyones interests.. they have very little self-interest when it comes to politics, as they have very little self to protect. They have no family to support, no job, live off the state or their parents, or both (in the majority) and as a result, are much more generous with their ideals.

    ---

    As you get older all this changes.. you become much more self-serving. You have a family who depend on you, and who you care much much more about then anyone else (although young people have parents, the responsibility is not there in the same way). You have a job, a house, a car, income, savings, a huge burden of responsibility and a pride in doing so.

    Its easy to see this with europe. A young person sees what is best for everyone, an ideal united europe, an escape from a tory goverment they hate mostly because its the accepted norm for a young person to hate the torys..Ofcourse this hardly works as the EU tends to lean more towards the right then the torys themselves.. They see immigration as a good thing, migrant crisis is important, we should help everyone, and everyone benifits being inside the EU.

    An older person with their more self-serving eyes sees people wanting to take something that is theirs.. take their nice country, fill it with people they dont care about, and dont want here. They see their money going away to other countries that they dont care about, and they see a system where they dont have complete control. Something young people dont care about, as they have never had complete control over their lives (not at uni or less), but for an older person is very important.

    ---

    Of course all of this goes out the window when it comes to other lines of thought, the economy, for example, which can easily over ride gut feelings for both young and old. But the clear differnce in thinking is observable as a general pattern from young to old, and fits nicely with voting demographics in the referendum.
    There could be much truth in this. The older folk have more responsibilities and hard earned assets to protect compared with the youngsters.

    It's interesting to note that being a homeowner was almost a prerequisite for being a BNP supporter. Contrary to what the media says about the BNP having its support base in the council estates, the BNP struggled to win support from tenants. Could it be that the homeowners were settled people with assets to protect that were concerned about their locality whereas the tenants were mobile people willing to move area every couple of years?
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Hope is not always justified, nor fear unjustified.

    The young have the most to fear, but the least understanding.
    Disagree, the young have nothing to lose, except their minds.

    The old have a lifetime of choices, customs and accumulated trinkets that they fear they may lose.

    This is why the young are revolutionary and the old conservative, it's not because the young are foolish or naieve, but because they have not had the time to be corrupted and bullied into an acolyte of their own oppression as the old have
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    No, it's not brainwashing. Young people just think that everyone wants to be saved, regardless to the consequences to those immediately around you.

    Someone brings up extremists in immigrants argument; they somehow twist it around by saying that extremists just had a bad environment (so?), it's their (the young person's) fault, extremists aren't that bad (that one truly disgusts me, having interacted with extremists on-line.)

    They're also extremely impressionable at that age and seem to be discomforted by independent thought; they prefer a nanny state.

    We've got rid of traditional thinking in terms of values (which I find good), but it's just been replaced my this new kind of extremism; this new kind of extremism has just taken up its place. In light of realising mistakes in history, we've somehow decided to take the burden for the rest of the world. Young people want to shoulder the burden and guilt to which they're entirely irrelevant and which they don't have the right to possess.

    Those chucking homosexuals off buildings should burden the guilt; not us for them.

    And I'm not actually kidding when I say there are young people who reduce extremists to delinquents and all that. There are many like this, cemented in their views, and it frightens me. It frightens me because the extremists I've met on-line frighten me, and they are apologetic to them and want to invite them into our home (UK) to make it right.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Brainwashed?

    "£350 million to the EU..." - lie

    "Turkey is joining the EU..." - lie

    "EU controls our borders" - lie

    "EU is undemocratic" - lie

    And so on. I think the people that are brainwashed are the ones that are incessantly repeating a list of statements that are all categorically wrong, while not having a single rational, original thought. The people who formed their entire decision on what they read in the tabloids and what they heard on Facebook.
    We do pay £55 million/day to the EU.
    We get refunded some, making it £35 million/day.
    We get money spent on us, making it £24 million/day.
    But we don't get to decide how this money is spent on us.
    (But we still pay an excess of £24 million/day.)

    The EU does control our borders.
    To be a part of the single market we have to abide by the freedom of movement between EU member states, meaning any EU citizen has the right to move here = little control over our own borders.

    The EU is undemocratic.
    The UK MEPs can't initiate legislation.
    The commissioner the UK appointed in the EC is not a representative, having sworn to work in the EU's interest; not ours, it's illegal for them to favour the member state that appointed them.

    The EU also has a system of degressive proportionality. The following metaphor is slightly exaggerated, but "back to the rotten boroughs!"

    (Original post by jgjog3)
    no not brainwashed... Just scared of American style capitalism which will ensue if we leave the EU. There will be significantly less jobs for the first few years until the UK picks itself up again. People voting out I think are the ones that are brain washed, they do it out of duty to restore the old glory of 1800s Britain. That's brain washing for you.
    No we don't? The sovereignty should lie with our democratically elected party every 4 years, as opposed to our undemocratic, "anti-democratic" and unaccountable European Union in Brussels.

    Also, there are economic arguments to leaving, such as not being subjected to the European Union Emission Trading Scheme and all the regulations there.

    We could have lower energy prices.
    We could help our steel industry (although our gov rejected the proposal to increase taxes on dumped Chinese steel.)("Dumped" has a certain meaning in economics of "selling below cost of production" I believe.)

    The EU will continue to trade with us; us being the biggest export market in the EU, so it will be highly beneficial for them to continue a trade relationship.

    David Cameron probably is voting for a bremain (advocating), because Brussels gives a nice salary once he's out of office. (He can waddle over there and be a bureaucrat who earns more than he does now.)

    There's also the highly-controversial (should-be anyway) Common Agricultural Policy, which drives down competition, increasing OUR food prices, and stalling development in LEDCs (Less-Economically-Developed Countries.)(In essence it blocks agricultural workers in these non-EU countries from having access to our single market of 500 million people. This also has the horrible habit of creating regional monopolies.)
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    (Original post by TaipeiGhost)
    Yes

    Youngsters lack the intelligence and life experience to come to decisions on their own. If Kim Kardashian came out in favour of Remain it would somehow influence a bunch of todays idiot youth to vote to stay.

    The voting age should be raised to 25. I think by that age you've learnt enough, know enough and experienced enough to make up your own decisions in life.
    i'd go for 21 the same age as adulthood truly starts
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    No you miss the point... seems to be a recurring trait, the reason many people think that the EU president and many others are unelected is because well.. WE don't get to vote for them. Voting for a few MEP's to sit around in Brussels does not give the British people a fair vote.. we are merely 1 Country so 1 vote essentially..

    We would like to know WHO the president or CHOICE of them are, their background and their political agendas.. and then WE should get to vote.. we can all play the euromillions each week but we can't ALL vote for a preferred Leader of the EU? Hence the term Undemocratic and all done behind closed doors.. Even the fact we have just a little fraction of power within the EU is INSANITY... lets just Govern ourselves! Simple really..
    I didn't get to vote even to put David Cameron into the House of Commons, let alone the job of PM, because I don’t live in Witney.

    I certainly didn't get to vote for our head of state, Her Majesty The Queen, either.

    Suck it up little Leaver, even the EU presidency is more democratic than what we have here.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Disagree, the young have nothing to lose, except their minds.

    The old have a lifetime of choices, customs and accumulated trinkets that they fear they may lose.
    What do you have to lose when you are 80? Chances are you will be dead in 5 years anyway.

    Young people are going to spend much more time on this earth than old people. They have a much greater stake in the outcome of the referendum but much less interest and will have a much lower turnout.

    This is why the young are revolutionary and the old conservative, it's not because the young are foolish or naieve, but because they have not had the time to be corrupted and bullied into an acolyte of their own oppression as the old have
    Most revolutions in history have ended in total catastrophe for the "oppressed".
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    What a shame you still don't get it.. typical Remainer who can't admit when they are wrong.

    I will try to explain this slowly for you.. We get to see the people within a Political party whom we are voting for in advance.. so we are voting for people that we know all about.. in the hope these people get into positions to make help make the decisions we prefer. This is true for local and general elections..

    This process is not the same for the EU.. therefor on that basis it is not democratic in comparison.. we are basically told after a secret vote who this stranger will be.. and we are just ONE country from 20odd.. and have very little influence to be fair. Cameron wanted to reform our "deal" and failed!

    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I didn't get to vote even to put David Cameron into the House of Commons, let alone the job of PM, because I don’t live in Witney.

    I certainly didn't get to vote for our head of state, Her Majesty The Queen, either.

    Suck it up little Leaver, even the EU presidency is more democratic than what we have here.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    What is all this hysteria about an EU army? Nobody is proposing one, it really is the British equivalent of American birthers, just so completely unfounded in fact that it is almost impossible to argue against.

    The EU has given us far more referenda than the UK ever has when it has been fiddling with our constitution. Most recently the Tories were trying to co-opt MPs who had been elected to the UK parliament into a virtual English one, which is a form of coup. None of your sort were calling for a referendum then.

    The Westminster system is far more undemocratic than the EU one. It uses FPTP, has an unelected upper house and the executive is not separated from the legislature.
    Not hysteria. I'll hold you to it though. I think also that you are naive about referenda, they can and have been overriden by Brussels and are highly influenced by vested interests. Also Catalonia never got theirs on independence, the EU is blocking it.

    And you seem to have lost all concept we can influence our own democracy, with this about the westminster system, in an independent country, you can make your voice heard and get involved, and things change bit by bit, at least we have the democracy to fight for that, in the EU future, our independent mindedness will evaporate, we will get lazy, and Europe will just get more and more autocratic. it's so obvious.
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    (Original post by TaipeiGhost)
    Yes

    Youngsters lack the intelligence and life experience to come to decisions on their own. If Kim Kardashian came out in favour of Remain it would somehow influence a bunch of todays idiot youth to vote to stay.
    To be fair Kim Kardashian probably has as much political credibility as Boris Johnson and people listen to him...
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    I see the brexiter camp lying about 350 million figure, trying to argue it on semantics.

    If I pay for a 50p pack of chewing gum with a £20 note and get £19.50 in change back, according to the leave camp it would have cost me £20.

    Bunch of opportunist liars with severe victim mentalities, the lot of them.
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    No, we send £350million and then ALL this money is controlled by the EU.. even if we get a rebate (crazy) or other payments back (stupid) we don't have control over how we would like to spend it.. so it's like me going into a shop and buy a packet of crisps for £1 but then the shopkeeper gives me 40p back in vouchers that can only be spent in their shop!

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I see the brexiter camp lying about 350 million figure, trying to argue it on semantics.

    If I pay for a 50p pack of chewing gum with a £20 note and get £19.50 in change back, according to the leave camp it would have cost me £20.

    Bunch of opportunist liars with severe victim mentalities, the lot of them.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Not hysteria. I'll hold you to it though. I think also that you are naive about referenda, they can and have been overriden by Brussels and are highly influenced by vested interests. Also Catalonia never got theirs on independence, the EU is blocking it.

    And you seem to have lost all concept we can influence our own democracy, with this about the westminster system, in an independent country, you can make your voice heard and get involved, and things change bit by bit, at least we have the democracy to fight for that, in the EU future, our independent mindedness will evaporate, we will get lazy, and Europe will just get more and more autocratic. it's so obvious.
    Well apart from expanding the franchise we haven't changed it since 1832 and nobody seems to care enough. It's generally a waste of time expecting the British public to pursue any idea more sophisticated than what's in front of their face. Generally we have to have a massive war before people wake up enough to get anything meaningful done.

    Again there wasn't a blink of an eyelid when the government tried to push through the EVEL coup, passed the dictatorial Fixed Term Parliaments Act, passed various retroactive legislation, changed to individual voter registration to try and get young people and renters to drop off, etc. Nobody in Britain cares a fig for democracy other than when there is an opportunity to indulge their jingoism and stick it to those poncy Europeans.

    The domestic Spanish government in Madrid is the one which keeps blocking the Catalonian referendum. In fact in general the EU likes to support subnational regions because it helps to erode the traditional nation states of Europe.
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    No, we send £350million and then ALL this money is controlled by the EU.. even if we get a rebate (crazy) or other payments back (stupid) we don't have control over how we would like to spend it.. so it's like me going into a shop and buy a packet of crisps for £1 but then the shopkeeper gives me 40p back in vouchers that can only be spent in their shop!
    Leavers just can't seem to stop spreading lies about this figure. Here's the lowdown:

    £18bn a year, or £346m/wk, as rounded up by the Leavers, is what we should pay to the EU.
    Thanks to a rebate of £5bn* we only pay £13bn.
    £4.5bn of that the EU spends on us.

    So that's like buying crisps priced at £1 (posh ones surely?) but which have been reduced to 72p just for you because your great-aunt Maggie wouldn't stop screeching about how her family was more important than everyone else on the street. Then the shopkeeper gives you a voucher for 25p on top of that to spend on a certain range of items in his shop.

    Therefore you get the same fancy Tyrrells everyone else is getting but for just 47p a packet. Whereas with Brexit, even if we pay less, say 30p a packet (which might not be the case) for our trade deals, we get MUCH less. The Brexit bunch, led by Boris "Golden Wonder" Johnson, want to take us back to a Chipstick Britain.

    *this is made up without undue complaint by all the other EU member states - imagine the whinging if it were the other way round!
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    (Original post by Arran90)
    There could be much truth in this. The older folk have more responsibilities and hard earned assets to protect compared with the youngsters.

    It's interesting to note that being a homeowner was almost a prerequisite for being a BNP supporter. Contrary to what the media says about the BNP having its support base in the council estates, the BNP struggled to win support from tenants. Could it be that the homeowners were settled people with assets to protect that were concerned about their locality whereas the tenants were mobile people willing to move area every couple of years?
    Really, do you have a source for that?
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    (Original post by Iknowbest)
    No, we send £350million and then ALL this money is controlled by the EU.. even if we get a rebate (crazy) or other payments back (stupid) we don't have control over how we would like to spend it.. so it's like me going into a shop and buy a packet of crisps for £1 but then the shopkeeper gives me 40p back in vouchers that can only be spent in their shop!
    Don't be dishonest and say it costs us 350 million, it doesn't.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Don't be dishonest and say it costs us 350 million, it doesn't.
    As he said up-thread he doesn't know himself and has only been following politics since last year if that.

    It shows how effectively the Leave lies hook into the average disengaged voter: because they are based on the same universal instincts that mean we will all be watching England tomorrow night.
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    I didn't get to vote even to put David Cameron into the House of Commons, let alone the job of PM, because I don’t live in Witney.

    I certainly didn't get to vote for our head of state, Her Majesty The Queen, either.

    Suck it up little Leaver, even the EU presidency is more democratic than what we have here.
    But Her Majesty The Queen's Royal Assent has the history of just being a formality for example.

    How is the EU presidency more democratic? We have no representative in the European Commission; it is illegal for a commissioner to work on behalf of a member state, for Christ Sake!

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I see the brexiter camp lying about 350 million figure, trying to argue it on semantics.

    If I pay for a 50p pack of chewing gum with a £20 note and get £19.50 in change back, according to the leave camp it would have cost me £20.

    Bunch of opportunist liars with severe victim mentalities, the lot of them.
    Considering EU rebate and EU budget spent on us (UK), we still pay an excess of £168 million/week. Do you acknowledge that fact?

    And there's not a chance in hell of that metaphor working.

    Why do you consider the Brexit camp homogeneous in their reasoning?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by scrotgrot)
    As he said up-thread he doesn't know himself and has only been following politics since last year if that.

    It shows how effectively the Leave lies hook into the average disengaged voter: because they are based on the same universal instincts that mean we will all be watching England tomorrow night.
    Don't diminish s.o. for following politics for a short amount of time.

    I've done much much less; it doesn't determine his credibility or worth.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
 
 
 
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