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    (Original post by frackme)
    are you writing an essay in school? seem to be asking an awful lot of questions but seem to disbelieve everything you are told..

    infact l think you could even be a remain campaigner..
    I intend to vote remain, but was curious to see if there were any real reasons for me to consider voting leave. It is not a case of disbelieving, it is a case of wanting information I'm given to be verifiable, which is a reasonable demand.
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    (Original post by frackme)
    are you writing an essay in school? seem to be asking an awful lot of questions but seem to disbelieve everything you are told..

    infact l think you could even be a remain campaigner..
    Damn those remainers, checking their facts and not believing whatever The Sun tells them!!!
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    who still buys the SUN ... lmao
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    VOTE OUT!!!!!! Brexit if done correctly makes sense = dump trade barriers.. go for free trade....= economic economy will grow..

    instead of a rookie EU who are bleeding countries dry while their members are going down one country after another. Spain now in trouble so are Italy and Germany... who next???

    who can blame Switzerland for withdrawing their membership application.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    UK currently has to pay the EU 35 million+ pounds of its money every year/month, and the UK cannot say no. If we leave, this stops.
    If we leave, we will have less tax charges from the government. There are many more reasons.
    This sums up how much leave campaigners lie. "35+ million pounds of its money every year/month"

    Which is it them you lying imbecile.
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    This sums up how much leave campaigners lie. "35+ million pounds of its money every year/month"

    Which is it them you lying imbecile.
    £350 million. I wasnt lying. I just didnt know the exact number.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    £350 million. I wasnt lying. I just didnt know the exact number.
    Did you really just say that?

    So it isn't lying if you give figures without knowing whether they are right or not? It's okay to just say whatever figure comes into your head because you didn't know?
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Did you really just say that?

    So it isn't lying if you give figures without knowing whether they are right or not? It's okay to just say whatever figure comes into your head because you didn't know?
    I wasnt lying, thats why I put the + sign.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    I wasnt lying, thats why I put the + sign.
    Because +£35 million a month/year is pretty much the same as £350 million a week....
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Because +£35 million a month/year is pretty much the same as £350 million a week....
    UK currently has to pay the EU £350 million pounds of its money every week, and the UK cannot say no. If we leave, this stops.If we leave, we will have less tax charges from the government. There are many more reasons.
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    Eurosceptics and Leave campaigners often cite Norway’s relationship with the EU as the model for Britain to emulate. Norway has access to the majority of the continent’s market and is part of the European Economic Area (EEA) agreement.



    But in return Norway is obliged to be part of Europe’s passport-free Schengen travel zone. Norwegians also have no say in EU rules and have no representatives in any of the bloc’s institutions despite paying a considerable amount each year for its semi-detached relationship with the EU.
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    Whenever an expert weighs in on Brexit, Leave dismiss everything they say as fear mongering. Cynicism is so easy. And cynics don't accomplish much.


    Anti-intellectualism is a dangerous road to go down. Ignorance is not a virtue. Of course we should listen to experts as long as they are impartial. When Leave express a disdain for facts, and are not held accountable for repeating falsehoods, and just making stuff up while actual experts are dismissed as elitist, then we’ve got a problem.



    The rejection of facts, the rejection of reason and science, that is the path to decline.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    UK currently has to pay the EU £350 million pounds of its money every week, and the UK cannot say no. If we leave, this stops.If we leave, we will have less tax charges from the government. There are many more reasons.
    Few crucial questions:

    a) How much of this money do we get back?
    b) Do you want to be part of the single market if we leave?
    c) Who says we will pay less tax?


    Finally, you miss the point. If you want to debate with information you have at least some basis for using, however much I think it is misleading, then do so. But don't just pluck figure out your head without knowing whether they are correct of whether they are out by a factor of 520!

    Because just sticking a + or - in there does not adequately cover that kind of margin of error!
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    Its blatantly obivous that central banks created the biggest rift in wealth, in ordinary citizens, between the haves and the have nots since dickensian times, and its those people who want to remain who are voting that this is fine..

    You know, the ones who have got their house for free. [House prices tripled from 97-2007 whilst the median uk wage rose by just £6.5k]

    Central banks completely orchestrated that happening.

    Up to 50% of land in the UK is not registered with the land registry. Land is not taxed. Which enables large companies and aristocrats to land bank.
    They are funded by land grants from the EU, via the poorest taxpayers to keep the land off the market.

    They then drip feed parcels onto the urban housing market via a corrupt planning system, for millions of pounds, keeping prices where they want them. Sky High.

    An LVT fisrst introduced by Lloyd George in his peoples budget of 1909, would just tax land which is unproductive.
    Not Farmland. But Land which cannot pay its own way.
    Tens of millions of acres were stolen during successive inclosures acts. Common Land. Make them sell it. Open up planning. Bring the price of land back down.And its a myth that Land is scarce.

    You wont get things like a land value tax from the EU. The house of Lords love em.

    VOTE BREXI, and make it a progressive political movement. To make britain a fairer place for all.
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    1) we can have full representative-democratic control of our laws and our borders while currently we can't control our borders in a european context and 50%~ of our laws are derived from the unelected EU commission or powerless EU parliament (or the ECJ - but if we included the case law of the ECJ then it would be more than 50%)
    I haven't decided which way to vote yet - nothing seems clear in either case because one side says something convincing and the other side counter it convincingly.

    But on this point you've mentioned above I've seen A LOT of people mentioning this online but I also read that many of those laws have benefited Britain - some major ones were to do with working hours and gender equality which are really important issues to me (and I suppose lots of other people). So that's a positive thing that these EU laws have forced our country into giving workers more rights and acknowledging gender inequality.

    This is why I don't know which way to vote because every time an important point is raised, it is shown not to be the full picture. It feels like both sides are exaggerating certain issues.

    Another point that has me undecided is immigration. I don't agree with people from other countries taking advantage of the benefit system BUT we have UK nationals who already do that (like those stories of mothers with 15 kids or people who have never worked for 20+ years) etc. So if it's purely about benefits then when don't we sort out the benefit fraud committed by UK nationals? If it's about jobs then I don't agree because a lot of EU workers e.g polish take jobs that UK citizens turn their noses up at. So they actually benefit our economy.

    So it doesn't all seem like you can be certain for the 'remain' or 'leave' side to me.

    Overall, I think we should stay a country that is in touch with Europe and allows movement etc BUT I don't like the current situation of not being able to control our borders. I think it's good to be inclusive and multicultural but I don't think it's okay to be dictated to about our own borders and laws....but I can see how it has benefited us to have certain laws and certain workers migrating here.

    Totally on the fence and don't know how to make my mind up because everyone with a solid opinion seems to be either a loony lefty or a far right maniac.
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    (Original post by LordMallard)
    Immigration go down.
    Extra money for public services or tax cuts, would blunt the axe of austerity
    Still on the fence but this might push me to vote leave. I was unemployed after school and it was horrendous. I had no clue our government was paying millions (billions?) just to BE in the EU. Shouldn't that money be helping our own UK citizens? If we had more £££ for the NHS would it be in such a crisis? If we weren't still in recession and handing over money to the EU would be be cutting benefits of the disabled and demanding bedroom tax from people who've lived in their home their whole lives (elderly people)? Genuinely wondering.

    I don't get why we're giving so much money away when our own country is in a mess?
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    (Original post by KatieBlogger)
    I haven't decided which way to vote yet - nothing seems clear in either case because one side says something convincing and the other side counter it convincingly.

    But on this point you've mentioned above I've seen A LOT of people mentioning this online but I also read that many of those laws have benefited Britain - some major ones were to do with working hours and gender equality which are really important issues to me (and I suppose lots of other people). So that's a positive thing that these EU laws have forced our country into giving workers more rights and acknowledging gender inequality.
    why would you think that the UK government wouldn't immediately introduce this in domestic law though...? I don't understand. that would be *appalling* for their electoral prospects...?
    this is the issue with the EU - if it makes *ANY* good laws, then we say "oh we could never have made this law without the EU" - let me tell you, the EU as an institution takes YEARS doing *anything* because it is made up of 30 some countries and a commission that isn't accountable to some simple time-management standards. yet people think that it is competent because it makes ONE good law? really? so if we got rid of all the laws and simply reintroduced the good ones (not the bad ones) into UK law upon brexit, that's *not* something that's a better alternative than simply accepting ALL the laws?

    This is why I don't know which way to vote because every time an important point is raised, it is shown not to be the full picture. It feels like both sides are exaggerating certain issues.

    Another point that has me undecided is immigration. I don't agree with people from other countries taking advantage of the benefit system
    yeah see who's even claiming that the benefits system is even a part of the equation here, though? we have too many people who come here, regardless of their obviously innocent reasons (usually). if it's *numbers* we should care about, and if it's the types of people that come (we want skilled people who will work in unpopular/unflourishing UK industries) then WHY would we stay in the EU when we don't get to control what kind of people and how many of them from usually eastern european countries come here? sure EU immigration isn't all the immigration but it is the reason we have to have quite a lot of non-EU immigration - because the EU immigrants aren't needed in particular 9industries, yet the non-EU immigrants, are, so we're left with this situation where we've got so much immigration simply to COMPENSATE for the useless immigration that creates unemployment and housing/school problems!

    BUT we have UK nationals who already do that (like those stories of mothers with 15 kids or people who have never worked for 20+ years) etc. So if it's purely about benefits then when don't we sort out the benefit fraud committed by UK nationals?
    again, who's even claiming this is about benefits? people who want remain say "immigrants are hard working people" yet they also say "david cameron's got a good renegotiation" - if those two facts are true, then why would the renegotiation (involving no benefits for immigrants for 4 years) be "good" when that renegotiation assumed that a significant pull factor of migrants was *specifically* the benefits system?!

    If it's about jobs then I don't agree because a lot of EU workers e.g polish take jobs that UK citizens turn their noses up at. So they actually benefit our economy.
    ...why would UK nationals turns their noses up at jobs when there are people who don't even get *any* jobs? I was a poor, desperate student early in this summer and I would have taken ANY job. I wouldn't have cared what it was, I would have taken ANY job. how can you even say that somebody like me, a normal person, would have "turned my nose up" at it?! how can you say something like this? you think I don't need money?! why would I say no to money? :| I have no specific skills (yet) and no job offering a lot of money will hire me (yet) so why would I? have you even thought about this to this degree? it doesn't sound like you have. I would be a sewage worker if that was the only job I could land, because I need to survive somehow, don't I? if you're going to claim "well you'd say no and get benefits instead" - that's not how our system works. you can't just get benefits for nothing as an alternative to a job.

    So it doesn't all seem like you can be certain for the 'remain' or 'leave' side to me.

    Overall, I think we should stay a country that is in touch with Europe and allows movement etc BUT I don't like the current situation of not being able to control our borders. I think it's good to be inclusive and multicultural but I don't think it's okay to be dictated to about our own borders and laws....but I can see how it has benefited us to have certain laws and certain workers migrating here.
    1) we can't change this lack of border control though. the EU staff and the heads/leaders in the EU have all unanimously reiterated that freedom of movement is non-negotiatble. and how will it ever be changed, as a constitutional aspect of the EU as an institution, when members like poland or romania can single handedly, as individual countries, veto constitutional changes?!
    2 ..."multicultural"? who's even talking about multiculturalism here? the EU surely is of the same liberal democratic culture...? or at least it was. I think you're just echoing what you've heard on TV or something because that doesn't fit in here
    3) you think a lack of EU control of immigrants, as opposed to *controlled* immigration, as "benefitted" us? are you even considering the counter-factual of what would have happened economically if we *could* have controlled EU immigration so that we could have targeted certain industries like australia do? :|

    Totally on the fence and don't know how to make my mind up because everyone with a solid opinion seems to be either a loony lefty or a far right maniac.
    well I'm neither of those things and I'm simply giving you the cold hard facts
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    (Original post by sleepysnooze)
    why would you think that the UK government wouldn't immediately introduce this in domestic law though...? I don't understand. that would be *appalling* for their electoral prospects...?
    this is the issue with the EU - if it makes *ANY* good laws, then we say "oh we could never have made this law without the EU" - let me tell you, the EU as an institution takes YEARS doing *anything* because it is made up of 30 some countries and a commission that isn't accountable to some simple time-management standards. yet people think that it is competent because it makes ONE good law? really? so if we got rid of all the laws and simply reintroduced the good ones (not the bad ones) into UK law upon brexit, that's *not* something that's a better alternative than simply accepting ALL the laws?



    yeah see who's even claiming that the benefits system is even a part of the equation here, though? we have too many people who come here, regardless of their obviously innocent reasons (usually). if it's *numbers* we should care about, and if it's the types of people that come (we want skilled people who will work in unpopular/unflourishing UK industries) then WHY would we stay in the EU when we don't get to control what kind of people and how many of them from usually eastern european countries come here? sure EU immigration isn't all the immigration but it is the reason we have to have quite a lot of non-EU immigration - because the EU immigrants aren't needed in particular 9industries, yet the non-EU immigrants, are, so we're left with this situation where we've got so much immigration simply to COMPENSATE for the useless immigration that creates unemployment and housing/school problems!



    again, who's even claiming this is about benefits? people who want remain say "immigrants are hard working people" yet they also say "david cameron's got a good renegotiation" - if those two facts are true, then why would the renegotiation (involving no benefits for immigrants for 4 years) be "good" when that renegotiation assumed that a significant pull factor of migrants was *specifically* the benefits system?!



    ...why would UK nationals turns their noses up at jobs when there are people who don't even get *any* jobs? I was a poor, desperate student early in this summer and I would have taken ANY job. I wouldn't have cared what it was, I would have taken ANY job. how can you even say that somebody like me, a normal person, would have "turned my nose up" at it?! how can you say something like this? you think I don't need money?! why would I say no to money? :| I have no specific skills (yet) and no job offering a lot of money will hire me (yet) so why would I? have you even thought about this to this degree? it doesn't sound like you have. I would be a sewage worker if that was the only job I could land, because I need to survive somehow, don't I? if you're going to claim "well you'd say no and get benefits instead" - that's not how our system works. you can't just get benefits for nothing as an alternative to a job.



    1) we can't change this lack of border control though. the EU staff and the heads/leaders in the EU have all unanimously reiterated that freedom of movement is non-negotiatble. and how will it ever be changed, as a constitutional aspect of the EU as an institution, when members like poland or romania can single handedly, as individual countries, veto constitutional changes?!
    2 ..."multicultural"? who's even talking about multiculturalism here? the EU surely is of the same liberal democratic culture...? or at least it was. I think you're just echoing what you've heard on TV or something because that doesn't fit in here
    3) you think a lack of EU control of immigrants, as opposed to *controlled* immigration, as "benefitted" us? are you even considering the counter-factual of what would have happened economically if we *could* have controlled EU immigration so that we could have targeted certain industries like australia do? :|



    well I'm neither of those things and I'm simply giving you the cold hard facts
    Why are you asking me questions as if I've got my mind set on an opinion and saying that I THINK certain things??? I said I DON'T. I'm just thinking aloud and asking questions and trying to understand so why are you jumping down my throat? That's not going to get me on either side.
    I just want someone impartial to explain and you're another person with an agenda. I'm going to spoil my vote at this rate or just guess.
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    (Original post by KatieBlogger)
    Why are you asking me questions as if I've got my mind set on an opinion and saying that I THINK certain things??? I said I DON'T. I'm just thinking aloud and asking questions and trying to understand so why are you jumping down my throat? That's not going to get me on either side.
    I just want someone impartial to explain and you're another person with an agenda. I'm going to spoil my vote at this rate or just guess.
    because you are actually entertaining the nonsense like this claim that immigrants come here for benefits! :lol:
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    According to the Guardian the number of people who have to work on minimum wage will double over the next 20 years. This is great news for company bosses and shareholders. This is fuelled by workers from post 2004 accession countries happily wanting to work for minimum wage as it is double the minimum wage in their own countries. Work here for a year, live 10 to a house then go back with 2 years worth of pay. This drives up rents and lowers the wages that bosses will offer. The 2 speed EU is broken. A vote for remain will condemn our young people to a life on minimum wage.
 
 
 
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