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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    You can't rehabilitate everyone but you can try, and people who have proven that they want to change and are making a genuine effort to reform should be given opportunities to give back to society. And I recognise that this is more difficult for people who have extremely long sentences (I do not agree with "life-means-life" sentences apart from the most extreme cases) but there are still ways. If they are given access to the education and care that they were probably deprived of in their childhood, I think you could turn a lot of people.

    It's also worth mentioning that it's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life than to execute them because of the legal issues involved.
    I agree that the pedos need to be treated after being put away, I don't agree they should be killed each and every one simply for being a pedo. Definitely stay in the psych ward for some time, sure. I only feel like terrorists and serial killers and kidnappers need to be killed when caught, there's no rehab that can help them. And I obviously won't agree with just letting people leave before their time is up, but just saying overpopulation in prison is a thing and the gov't can be really corrupt and not care where these people go.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Perhaps I could get on board with that although I'm sure that would be more expensive than capital punishment
    Well as someone mentioned in the thread there's no evidence that death would be cheaper. The legal workings are too complex etc. so prices build up. If the legal workings did not exist you would effectively have a state that can kill anyone, which is not preferable.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    And what if they are released and rehabilitated and never so much as pirate a film ever again?
    How can you be so sure of that though?
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    (Original post by cuppa)
    How tf is death a punishment anyway. If I killed 5 people I'd rather get killed myself than rot in prison for the next 50 years, get completely institutionalised and then not survive outside the institution if I'm ever let out?

    I think it's more of a case of improving the system in other ways
    I'm only against it because of a false conviction sending an innocent person to their death. The problem is that either someone stays in prison and we have to take funding to keep them there which is a waste of money especially since we have to build large prisons or they are released but they most likely go and do it again.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Perhaps I could get on board with that although I'm sure that would be more expensive than capital punishment
    I think you really underestimate how much 5+ years of legal fees costs when compared to some cheap clothing, bedding, food and a guy to poke them with a stick occasionally.

    Plus assuming we went with the lethal injection (the popular method in the US) this is ridiculously expensive because funnily enough companies don't want to let you use their product to kill people and regularly change it/ban you from getting it.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Rehabilitation is good if it works. If it doesn't or their crimes are so severe that they can't be trusted outside of prison then leaving them in prison for the rest of their lives is the only option.

    I'm not going to claim the system we have is perfect, simply that adding the death sentence isn't the magic bullet some like to believe it is.

    Not to mention, while it's frequently quoted in relation to rape/paedophilia, these crimes rarely receive a prison sentence long enough that the death penalty would be considered (rightly or wrongly).
    Yea I don't feel: don't have the death sentence simply off fingers crossed that rehab "works." I think both need to be in place but honestly with corruption the death sentence as I said might be abused like over used, people sent in for undeserving things, I can see it now. So my ideal solution is proper sentencing.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    How can you be so sure of that though?
    You can't. How can you be sure they wouldn't be able to and thus kill them?

    There are no sureties. Which is why we have parole and sex offenders lists etc.
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    No we should not, and as for serial killers, rapists and pedophiles then I think it's out of the question that we give them maximum sentences and very limited prison benefits.
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    (Original post by SargentZenj2)
    Do you think we should have it in the UK?
    Yes

    Ian Brady, Peter Sutcliffe, Robert Black, Rose West and a few others who have been in prison for many years, who are not innocent should have been dead had we the death penalty.

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    (Original post by Vikingninja)
    I'm only against it because of a false conviction sending an innocent person to their death. The problem is that either someone stays in prison and we have to take funding to keep them there which is a waste of money especially since we have to build large prisons or they are released but they most likely go and do it again.
    I see what you mean. If we didn't convict people for stealing a TV once and just put them through a bit of rehab, same with drug users (rather than dealers), a lot spaces would open up I'd imagine.

    As I mentioned above the legal workings of death penalty are expansive so if it was done a lot the prices would truly build up. And if the legal workings did not exist the state would have the right to kill whoever they want basically, which includes the innocent people you mentioned and more.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    Yea I don't feel: don't have the death sentence simply off fingers crossed that rehab "works." I think both need to be in place but honestly with corruption the death sentence as I said might be abused like over used, people sent in for undeserving things, I can see it now. So my ideal solution is proper sentencing.
    I agree that rehab doesn't always work and also isn't a magic bullet. As with most problems, there isn't one. Rehab offers solutions in the form of lowering re-offense and hopefully turning unproductive/counterproductive members of society into productive ones (best case). The death sentence offers no advantages over putting them in jail and locking away the key, other than vengeance.

    I fully agree that proper sentencing has to be the solution.

    Incidentally, if we're discussing rape/paedophilia, they are not getting a comfy or smooth ride in prison as I understand it. They are universally reviled and targeted.
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    (Original post by batman1308)
    No we should not, and as for serial killers, rapists and pedophiles then I think it's out of the question that we give them maximum sentences and very limited prison benefits.
    Well yea. But if it comes into place, they're the ones the serial killers anyway who need to get it, exclusively.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    I think you really underestimate how much 5+ years of legal fees costs when compared to some cheap clothing, bedding, food and a guy to poke them with a stick occasionally.

    Plus assuming we went with the lethal injection (the popular method in the US) this is ridiculously expensive because funnily enough companies don't want to let you use their product to kill people and regularly change it/ban you from getting it.
    If a serial murder is jailed at the age of say 21, they'd require food/bedding/clothes/water for 60+ years. Factor in people serving 5/10/15 years for lesser crimes.

    I think that both methods are probably fairly equal in expenses so I'm not sure that it's costs are worth mentioning
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I agree that the pedos need to be treated after being put away, I don't agree they should be killed each and every one simply for being a pedo. Definitely stay in the psych ward for some time, sure. I only feel like terrorists and serial killers and kidnappers need to be killed when caught, there's no rehab that can help them. And I obviously won't agree with just letting people leave before their time is up, but just saying overpopulation in prison is a thing and the gov't can be really corrupt and not care where these people go.
    Doesn't killing a terrorist just create a martyr though?

    Regarding serial killers, they typically go down in a "blaze of glory" from my understanding. At any rate, you can just lock them up for the rest of their lives.

    I'm not entirely convinced kidnappers belong in this crowd? Depends what you're doing with the people you kidnap I suppose.
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    I agree that rehab doesn't always work and also isn't a magic bullet. As with most problems, there isn't one. Rehab offers solutions in the form of lowering re-offense and hopefully turning unproductive/counterproductive members of society into productive ones (best case). The death sentence offers no advantages over putting them in jail and locking away the key, other than vengeance.

    I fully agree that proper sentencing has to be the solution.

    Incidentally, if we're discussing rape/paedophilia, they are not getting a comfy or smooth ride in prison as I understand it. They are universally reviled and targeted.
    That's accusatory. People keep going to prison because of recidivism, which is a systematic plan to keep people repeating offenses. Like the restrictions they get when they apply for residence, student finance, jobs. This makes em feel stuck and so they say **** it and resort to quick cash again and violate asbos, probation, etc. Trust me I know it too well. Prison has a revolving door and not only because "something's wrong in their head so get rehab. And if rehab fails then forget rehab, send em to death or keep locking em up," some people say.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I agree that the pedos need to be treated after being put away, I don't agree they should be killed each and every one simply for being a pedo. Definitely stay in the psych ward for some time, sure. I only feel like terrorists and serial killers and kidnappers need to be killed when caught, there's no rehab that can help them. And I obviously won't agree with just letting people leave before their time is up, but just saying overpopulation in prison is a thing and the gov't can be really corrupt and not care where these people go.
    What evidence do you have to show that terrorists, serial killers and kidnappers can't be rehabilitated?
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    (Original post by Elivercury)
    Doesn't killing a terrorist just create a martyr though?

    Regarding serial killers, they typically go down in a "blaze of glory" from my understanding. At any rate, you can just lock them up for the rest of their lives.

    I'm not entirely convinced kidnappers belong in this crowd? Depends what you're doing with the people you kidnap I suppose.
    I said in another post that if the person dies in their imprisonment, mostly from being tortured, it's seen as manslaughter but the level of cruelty has in fact sent kidnappers to death, yes. Even if the sentence was pardoned and sent to life. Few people are even sent to death in countries where it's legal.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    If a serial murder is jailed at the age of say 21, they'd require food/bedding/clothes/water for 60+ years. Factor in people serving 5/10/15 years for lesser crimes.

    I think that both methods are probably fairly equal in expenses so I'm not sure that it's costs are worth mentioning
    http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

    I suggest you have a look. The death penalty is significantly more expensive.

    It makes sense really. Apparently the average cost is $30,000 per year so for 60 years that is ~2mil

    The lawyers/judges will all be on 200k+ a year, so make them put in 5-10 years of work to get the death penalty and it adds up very quickly. Not to mention you still have to keep them in maximum security for 5-10 years.

    You can assume all you want, but the reality of the situation is that is isn't cost equal. The cost appears to be roughly 50% more from a scan of the figures on that site (it's a bit lengthy and breaks down every state). Therefore the cost is worth mentioning.
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    (Original post by Plagioclase)
    What evidence do you have to show that terrorists, serial killers and kidnappers can't be rehabilitated?
    Why do people on the internet ask for evidence all the time, it's very patronising. It's just an opinion...we're all discussing opinion, remember? I don't need to post links to prove an opinion. I feel they can't be, alright?

    Anyway serial killers are sociopaths mostly. Not psychopaths. Psycopaths are classified as not knowing what they did wrong, and normally say they killed because a nonexistent person told them to, or they were emotionally over the edge during the murder, and they normally do it once. Most serial killers are seen as sociopaths because they carefully plan each murder, murder em the same way usually, the same types of people usually, in the same place usually, and then try to bury the evidence, and upon being tried, they brag or show no remorse. Psychopaths are seen as those who were otherwise normal good reasonable people but "snapped." So serial killers cannot be rehabilitated I feel because they knew what they did and don't care. And kidnappers are also sociopaths a lot of the time.
    As for terrorists, they made a plan and decision to do what they did.

    Elivercury as you said martyrs I believe. If they did it for religion then I doubt they'll get counseled out of it but there are many different types of terrorists, not just Muslim ones you know. The ones who shoot up places because they were angry that day, maybe they can get help but the planning, the level of cruelty, I doubt it. And that's why they're sent to Gauntanamo, because they're the worst of the worst.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    That's accusatory. People keep going to prison because of recidivism, which is a systematic plan to keep people repeating offenses. Like the restrictions they get when they apply for residence, student finance, jobs. This makes em feel stuck and so they say **** it and resort to quick cash again and violate asbos, probation, etc. Trust me I know it too well. Prison has a revolving door and not only because "something's wrong in their head so get rehab. And if rehab fails then forget rehab, send em to death or keep locking em up," some people say.
    True, the restrictions that make it difficult to get a job, aid etc. heavily contribute to reoffending rates as they can be left with few options. It's a difficult one.

    Regarding your kidnapping & torture post below, surely the torture is the primary part here rather then the kidnapping? Or are you suggesting they kidnapped them so others could torture? In this circumstance I agree, they all share the blame and should receive severe sentences.
 
 
 
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