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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    I think it is important to point out that Legal and General and Reebok, did not say that they want Brexit.

    What they said was that Brexit won't affect business in the UK in short term. That is the case with many businesses but not all.

    In a survey of 700 British and German firms, more than 29% said they would relocate or cut capacity.

    In a survey of 127 American companies that employ 300,000 people, 70% said a Brexit would negatively impact on future investments.

    How many of these jobs can we get back in the "long term"?

    That really brings me back to my point that no business has said they will invest more. These are not politicians lying about Tuition fees.
    This ^^

    The Brexiters bang on about trade deals in Asia if we leave, yet the Chinese and Japanese leaders both favour remaining with regards to future investment from their countries in the UK.
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    joecphillips JamesN88 sleepysnooze Samonia


    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.

    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    You may have read or heard, many of these migrants have turned my country upside down. I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.

    Vote Leave!
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Are you that blinded by your dislike of the EU to really think that?

    The fact is it's cheaper to employ people in Asia and pay them **** all than it is to pay them properly in any western country.

    We don't buy almost everything from China by coincidence.
    Literally no-one here has spoken to me without first engaging me in some form of ad-hominem. From this point I just won't bother replying to any-one else who does that, because I don't have the time to waste on you. I hate to paint groups with one brush, but it honestly says a-lot about the remain group how you always use scorn and speak with a condescending attitude despite not backing up your arguments, and I'm sick of it.

    The Malaysians earn a very decent salary, actually. Industry over there helps speed up the development of the area, and then they in future will be worth more to us in trade deals. That is how we really help other countries, not Geldoff's crap charity stuff. Look how it went with China.


    Reason we don't buy "almost everything" from China is because we can't rationalize a trade deal without the EU's consent.
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    (Original post by dragonzrmetal)
    We have James Dyson and Professor Brian Sturgess arguing for us to leave but Bob Geldoff and Comrade Corbyn saying stay.

    See, you can twist that to sound however you like, it's just a silly argument to make, let's grow up a bit.

    To the OP, you should vote leave to make me happy. No, I mean honestly, if you're not sure, well personally I wouldn't vote.
    Calm down mate
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    (Original post by emmarough)
    Calm down mate
    I direct you to my previous post, first paragraph, 1:1 Book of Me.
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    (Original post by dragonzrmetal)
    Literally no-one here has spoken to me without first engaging me in some form of ad-hominem. From this point I just won't bother replying to any-one else who does that, because I don't have the time to waste on you. I hate to paint groups with one brush, but it honestly says a-lot about the remain group how you always use scorn and speak with a condescending attitude despite not backing up your arguments, and I'm sick of it.

    The Malaysians earn a very decent salary, actually. Industry over there helps speed up the development of the area, and then they in future will be worth more to us in trade deals. That is how we really help other countries, not Geldoff's crap charity stuff. Look how it went with China.


    Reason we don't buy "almost everything" from China is because we can't rationalize a trade deal without the EU's consent.
    People don't relocate to the other side of the world for any reason other reason, Indian call centres being a prime example. If you didn't make absurd claims like you did then you might get more serious responses.

    Almost everything from China was an exaggeration but the point remains, it's cheaper to pay people £1 an hour and ship the goods here from the Far East rather than pay UK wages.
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    (Original post by Inexorably)
    I AM AT MY WITS END WITH THIS EU REFERENDUM

    I HAVE WATCHED SO MANY DEBATES
    READ SO MANY ARTICLES
    SPOKEN TO SO MANY PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR OPINION

    AND I STILL CANNOT DECidEEEEEE.

    If you'd asked me anytime before like Summer last year I would have said leave, but then since then I've been kinda swaying on in.

    Then the past 2 weeks I just can't even decide at all. Both sides have pretty good points and I hate this cause it's my (our) generation that it's gonna affect the most ughhhhhhhh.

    IS it acceptable to just spoil my ballot in frustration.
    There's good arguments on both sides.

    So, you have to look at WHO is making the arguments.

    On the one side:

    - ALL the major political parties (from the Greens to the Tories), all major economists, all economic national and international expert

    On the other side:

    - THE FAR RIGHT: incl the most conservative Tories, UKIP and generally people who have a xenophobic and racist axe to grind, Russia (who stand to benefit greatly from the destabilisation of Europe)

    Gove said "the British people are tired of experts" with no quantifiable explanation as to why we shouldn't trust the experts on this matter? I mean, I'm no sheep and there are some instances when the experts are biased but they are pretty much all unanimous on this issue from all corners of the globe and Gove just puts this out there with no explanation as to why, which leads me to think WTF?!

    Now, you could make the case that well: the Tories and Labour make up "the establishment and the banking/corporate elite" (and you'd be right), but Corbyn and the Greens certainly don't (and are diametrically opposed to those interest groups).

    Now, Cameron et al don't give a sh*t about the people and ARE doing it for the corporate interests, but Labour and the Greens SHOULD HAVE BEEN 1,000,000% more vocal about the fact that our human and worker rights are at stake because the Tories (given full sovereignty) will not protect these and have made every effort to scrap these (as well as the NHS and basically everything that could possibly benefit the British people).

    Farage says "we will give the surplus money to the NHS" but a. he won't have power if we leave and b. AS IF. They are the FAR RIGHT (like Trump, like idk HITLER!!!!!!) (I know cap letters and exclamation marks add no sophistication nor credibility to my argument, but hey, it's very late on a Sunday night and I could write this formally and eloquently usually).

    The bottom line is: our future is at stake. If we vote out and find more credible evidence later, we can put the case to a subsequent Prime Minister. If we leave - that's it. We are no longer the colonial power that many think we are and we WILL be weaker, both economically (there are several worthy posts above which outline the international business landscape in detail and the case for remaining) and socially (worker rights wise and NHS wise (and PLEASE GUYS - the NHS is already in jeopardy without this)) if we hastily leave now.

    Immigration CAN be controlled by other means than making this huge mistake. Life is not black and white. It is grey. Please use your nuanced pre-frontal lobe part of the brain (logic, reasoned part) and not your hasty, aggressive amygdala (animal, excitable, racist part). That is all.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    People don't relocate to the other side of the world for any reason other reason, Indian call centres being a prime example. If you didn't make absurd claims like you did then you might get more serious responses.

    Almost everything from China was an exaggeration but the point remains, it's cheaper to pay people £1 an hour and ship the goods here from the Far East rather than pay UK wages.
    You still haven't given a valid rebuttal to my claims and so don't have the right to call them absurd.

    And the fact is, there is a world outside the UK. I find it funny I need to remind you of this, given the popular phrase Dodgy Dave dug up, "little England". Dyson does, in-fact, actually sell hoovers to places that are not part of the UK. Asia is Dyson's biggest (and original) market. In terms of countries, the greatest market is the USA, the second is Japan.

    You might reason from this, and correctly so, that it would not be cheaper for Mr. Dyson, who pushes research and technical jobs in the UK, to build hoovers on the opposite side of the world from his largest markets and then ship them there. It is far more sensible to build them there.
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    (Original post by J_89)
    There's good arguments on both sides.

    So, you have to look at WHO is making the arguments.

    On the one side:

    - ALL the major political parties (from the Greens to the Tories)

    On the other side:

    - THE FAR RIGHT: incl the most conservative Tories, UKIP and generally people who have a xenophobic and racist axe to grind.


    Now, you could make the case that well: the Tories and Labour make up "the establishment and the banking/corporate elite" (and you'd be right), but Corbyn and the Greens certainly don't (and are diametrically opposed to those interest groups).

    Now, Cameron et al don't give a sh*t about the people and ARE doing it for the corporate interests, but Labour and the Greens SHOULD HAVE BEEN 1,000,000% more vocal about the fact that our human and worker rights are at stake because the Tories (given full sovereignty) will not protect these and have made every effort to scrap these (as well as the NHS and basically everything that could possibly benefit the British people).

    Farage says "we will give the surplus money to the NHS" but a. he won't have power if we leave and b. AS IF. They are the FAR RIGHT (like Trump, like idk HITLER!!!!!!) (I know cap letters and exclamation marks add no sophistication nor credibility to my argument, but hey, it's very late on a Sunday night and I could write this formally and eloquently usually).
    I agree, you should look at who is making the arguments. We have this fine example here for remain, for example, who is quite innovative in his use of capitalized words for emphasis, and groundbreaking in his grammar.

    I wouldn't normally attack my fellow person, but I have excused myself the extreme irony this time, because that was a dirty and false argument to make, although extremely simple in its execution - draw forth a biased list of parties supporting each side.

    I might add that over-all, the conservatives do support leave, and a large chunk of Labour. 100% of UKIP, strangely enough.

    Actually, Farage does have the power. You see, the Leave agenda has been agreed upon by Boris and Gove, and it will inevitably be one of them who resumes leadership of the Convservative Party to carry out ol' Nigey's will, if in a more sensible way perhaps.

    "They are the FAR RIGHT"
    Um, what? That is your argument against Farage? They are part of the political far right? Wow, regardless of capitalization, that really isn't giving you any credibility at-all, you're right. UKIP is a very liberal party, I see you've been enthusiastically chowing down the force-fed media perspective. Politics is far more complex than left and right. UKIP's social policies are not typical of right wing parties at-all. I have the sudden feeling you have never read a UKIP manifesto in your life, and recommend you do so should you like to make reasonable and educated future arguments. Know thy enemy, right?
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    (Original post by dragonzrmetal)
    You still haven't given a valid rebuttal to my claims and so don't have the right to call them absurd.

    And the fact is, there is a world outside the UK. I find it funny I need to remind you of this, given the popular phrase Dodgy Dave dug up, "little England". Dyson does, in-fact, actually sell hoovers to places that are not part of the UK. Asia is Dyson's biggest (and original) market. In terms of countries, the greatest market is the USA, the second is Japan..
    AKA Dyson is still going to make money if we are in the EU or not.
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    (Original post by dragonzrmetal)
    You still haven't given a valid rebuttal to my claims and so don't have the right to call them absurd.

    And the fact is, there is a world outside the UK. I find it funny I need to remind you of this, given the popular phrase Dodgy Dave dug up, "little England". Dyson does, in-fact, actually sell hoovers to places that are not part of the UK. Asia is Dyson's biggest (and original) market. In terms of countries, the greatest market is the USA, the second is Japan.

    You might reason from this, and correctly so, that it would not be cheaper for Mr. Dyson, who pushes research and technical jobs in the UK, to build hoovers on the opposite side of the world from his largest markets and then ship them there. It is far more sensible to build them there.
    Lower costs is a valid rebuttal, can you back up your claim that he moved due to EU regulations?

    This quotes 30% lower production costs which makes perfect sense from a business perspective. The fact is that it's cheaper to build them there because wages there are lower on average. The USA is closer to here than Malaysia but again that's irrelevant due to the substantially lower production costs.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2...-Malaysia.html
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    Note to Audrey18

    I'll reply to it later, the post is so long that my phone is lagging when I try and type a reply.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, ask yourself, how many experts have come out in favour of Brexit?

    How many businesses have said that they will invest more in a Brexit?

    The reality is that very few have because no one will invest more in Britain when we cannot even guarantee free access to the EU.

    Before we joined the EU, we were the sickman of Europe. Currently, we have record unemployment and one of the best growth rates in Europe. Why are we putting this at risk?
    You believe the government figures then do you ? You do know unemployment statistics are heavily un-reliable ! You do also know that it is currently harder for graduates to get a job than in pevious years !!
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    (Original post by DoctorDC)
    You believe the government figures then do you ? You do know unemployment statistics are heavily un-reliable ! You do also know that it is currently harder for graduates to get a job than in pevious years !!
    Actually, the graduate employment rate is the highest since 2007.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    This ^^

    The Brexiters bang on about trade deals in Asia if we leave, yet the Chinese and Japanese leaders both favour remaining with regards to future investment from their countries in the UK.

    I highly doubt it will affect trade with China. Currently China is moving away from supporting US companies, so it is limiting the market there. It is also still working out how to exit its own financial trouble as the markets have been hit badly in recent years, so i doubt it could afford to cease any trade with the UK !
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Actually, the graduate employment rate is the highest since 2007.
    And are they government figures as well ? Employment in what sector - the field the graduate is trained in - or jobs in such sectors as retail ?

    I know many graduates struggling to get jobs in their field as companies are reluctant to train employees and want those with experience over education !
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    (Original post by DoctorDC)
    And are they government figures as well ? Employment in what sector - the field the graduate is trained in - or jobs in such sectors as retail ?

    I know many graduates struggling to get jobs in their field as companies are reluctant to train employees and want those with experience over education !
    Yeh and? Where else are you going to get it from? Have any evidence that they are lying about Graduate employment?
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yeh and? Where else are you going to get it from? Have any evidence that they are lying about Graduate employment?
    No - but do you trust the government ?

    Employment figures are manipulated to suit the government. When A4E had the contract for the back to work courses - people signing on were considered employed when they were doing these courses - even though they had no job or income during them. Therefore the employment figures showed a deline in unemployment. Sanctions were also increased as those sanctioned were considered no longer un-employed for the sake of the figures.

    Recent graduates are more likely to be unemployed and those that are aare often employed in non-skilled positions. Entry level graduate wages are also at an all time low.

    Think about it from a common sense POV. More people are going to university now than ever before, as such the job market is subjected to a higher number of candidates with degrees - therefore degrees are seen as a less valued commodity than they once were as so many people now have them.
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    (Original post by DoctorDC)
    No - but do you trust the government ?

    Employment figures are manipulated to suit the government. When A4E had the contract for the back to work courses - people signing on were considered employed when they were doing these courses - even though they had no job or income during them. Therefore the employment figures showed a deline in unemployment. Sanctions were also increased as those sanctioned were considered no longer un-employed for the sake of the figures.

    Recent graduates are more likely to be unemployed and those that are aare often employed in non-skilled positions. Entry level graduate wages are also at an all time low.

    Think about it from a common sense POV. More people are going to university now than ever before, as such the job market is subjected to a higher number of candidates with degrees - therefore degrees are seen as a less valued commodity than they once were as so many people now have them.
    Well, I don't think A4E explains why the employment figures are so high,

    I can agree about the over-saturation of graduates and etc. However, that doesn't mean that the figures are inherently untrustworthy.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Vote out.

    Facts: David Cameron has been lying to us for the last few years, has also lied in his manifesto. We pay £350 million a week to the EU every week. The EU controls our laws. We will not be able to vote out the politicians who make our laws in the EU. If we leave, we will be able to vote out whichever politician we dont like.
    We have no control on our borders and VAT. We need our democracy back, and be able to make new free trade deals with other countries. It is all possible.
    And the money that generates is a net gain.

    Well.. the people of that constituency can vote out their local MP. People who live in Yorkshire have no say of the MP for Tower Hamlets, for example. Our own system is not quite as democratic as many like to pretend.

    The EU does not control all our laws.

    There are trade blocs all over the world. South America have one (Mercosur); North America (NAFTA); Africa (African Free Trade Zone) etc. The vast majority of large world economies are part of a free trade zone. How can a small country like the UK, that makes nothing, approach Mercosur, for example, and attempt to negotiate a trade deal? We have nothing to offer. We'll have to pay high tariffs. South America is full of emerging economies that will continue to do well as they shift to renewable energy resources and their ability to educate their people and decrease birth rates. They have so much to offer and we have so little. Now, as part of the EU, we would have a better standing in negotations as we are now part of a larger economy and can barter over mutual interests. The idea that we would be able to develop substantial trade deals within the two years it takes for us to leave the EU is ludicrous. Desperate people do not negotiate well.
 
 
 
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