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Why do Leave voters think they know better than experts? Watch

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    (Original post by Miracle-)
    People in this thread seem to like to discredit experts but having experts is the very reason we have representatives in the House of Commons and not direct democracy.

    We elect people who represent our opinions and who are educated enough to make the best decision for us.

    Just think about why this version of democracy is chosen before you argue that your opinion is somewhat better than the majority of experts.
    Sorry, about what are MPs experts? The political process, maybe; party politics, likely; earning a living in the economy , actually contributing to a profit on which taxes they spend are applied, less certain.

    I have no problem with experts but I am not so keen on a bunch of, in the main, economically semi literate politicians, applying their party line to some fairly complex issues and somehow parading these as facts.

    If their expert's case is that convincing let just one of them come on air and explain in full, evaluating the assumptions made, the analysis the economist made, the range of outcomes he/she postulated, the risk weightings he/she applied to each outcome. Let the other economists feast on their argument, peck at it, maybe consume the interpreter; whilst economists may understand what they intend to say politicians are adept at shaping their evidence to fit their case.

    Anyone who has read any economics beyond school level is very aware that causes/effects/outcomes within an economy have few certainties, even when just considering a closed domestic economy. When international dimensions are added and shifting exchange rates added to the mix the permutations of outcomes arising from small changes in the myriad inputs increase at an alarming rate.

    If economic theory was cast in stone there would only need to be one textbook and no economy would stray from the correct path, but this is not the case, if it were the journals re economic theory would be devoid of content.

    Forecasters screw up, they misjudge lags between causes and effects, they ignore rare events, their product is frankly estimates whose only connection with reality is the soundness of their assumptions and the statistical confidence their projected outcomes merit. (Ask five economists for an opinion get ten opinions)

    An economist cannot isolate an experiment in a lab, repeat it over and over, and use that to predict outcome, all he/she can do is observe events with myriad changing factors, try to eliminate the variance caused by those he/she considers less significant and apply some ideas re causality.

    Whilst it is over thirty years since I studied any economics at university, and the world has changed a great deal since then, the one unwavering conclusion I drew from these studies is economics is very subjective and outcomes need considered carefully, anyone who pronounces a certainty re an economic outcome is either a liar or a fool; the catch is our politicians take the electorate to be the latter.

    So, consult the experts by all means but never blindly accept the interpretations peddled by politicians to make their case without examining the underlying data to which they refer.
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    Its because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect

    The less you know about things, the more you overestimate your expertise, hence we have the legions of armchair economists rubbishing reputable institutes, and crying project fear on anything they disagree with.
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    (Original post by Miracle-)
    People in this thread seem to like to discredit experts but having experts is the very reason we have representatives in the House of Commons and not direct democracy.

    We elect people who represent our opinions and who are educated enough to make the best decision for us.

    Just think about why this version of democracy is chosen before you argue that your opinion is somewhat better than the majority of experts.
    Your argument fails to understand that representative democracy assumes the representatives will indeed identify with the views we want them to support. The fact of the matter is that with access to information, the experts are often wrong and misleading.
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    I'm too young to be able to vote but I've got a clear grasp on the situation...

    Vote Leave is fuelled by patriotic idealogy and emotions.
    Vote Remain is fuelled by rational thought and a more persevering attitude.

    My point is supported by an expert (which is rather ironic) on behavioural economics.
    You can see this here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...d-anger---and/

    We can see EXACTLY the same thing happening in the US with Donald Trump. I think it's important for people voting for a Brexit to realise how insignificant we would be on a world stage by ourselves. We are NOT a gigantic empire like we used to be, we are much better unified with Europe. This may be crippling to our British pride, but sometimes you must let your pride go to do what's best.

    People have a tendency to hate admitting when they're wrong, which is why I think they are choosing to ignore the experts.

    I urge any of you who are old enough to VOTE REMAIN. Think with your head, not your heart.
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    (Original post by 16characterlimit)
    Its because of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunnin...3Kruger_effect

    The less you know about things, the more you overestimate your expertise, hence we have the legions of armchair economists rubbishing reputable institutes, and crying project fear on anything they disagree with.
    If you consider yourself open minded and less one sided, - Do you not ever think to yourself that what if project fear is true? What if the experts, economic advisors, bank of england, and politicians are manipulated/biased towards the Vote remain? What if the 200 messages from universities are false/manipulated by the EU?

    If not, then maybe your the one that could be falling for the experts, politician's... propaganda? Maybe you and every single Vote Remain supporter is falling for the incorrect propaganda from the EU manipulated experts, politicians, businessmen and universities?

    Tbh, its normal and humane for a person to question/doubt the EU's authority, the media, the experts, and the businessmen, etc, etc.

    It could be bullsh1t that you and all Vote remain supporters could be falling for. If you dont think about that, then your just one sided and could be ignorant and lost.
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    JordanL_


    Your question was 'Why do Leave voters think they know better than experts?

    Because these 'experts' were wrong about the Gold standard, they were wrong about the single market when the intention all along was ever closer political union and they were wrong about the Euro.

    They were wrong then and they are wrong now!

    Naveed-7 Ladymusiclover RuWill2001 JC. JW22 DJKL


    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Do you recall the George Osbourne tax rebate fiasco from 2 years ago? EU slapped a £1.7 billion on UK but Cameron vowed that he would not pay it. What happened in the end? UK still paid up and did so quietly.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...u-budget-bill/
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...n-budget-bill/
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ember-deadline
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...happening.html

    Yesterday, the German finance minister said he would cry if UK voted Brexit. Of course he would! Cos UK is the one funding the EU and Germany gets to dictate who gets the money and what to do with it.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...718_story.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6909616.html

    Please understand that Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. Do you recall last year when EU forced Greece to accept a humongous financial bailout which EU knew Greece would never be able to repay back cos the interests were just too high? and the greek banks allowed its citizens to withdraw only €120 per week? When this news first broke out in Greece, its citizens queued up outside the bank to withdraw their monies but the banks were shut. Do you recall this man who cried outside the bank and this image went viral?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-man-banks/




    If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.

    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    You may have read or heard, many of these migrants have turned my country upside down. I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.


    And if you go onto the Oxbridge threads on this forum and some of the other top UK unis, you will see a growing number of EU students who simply want UK to stay in the EU so that they can apply for student loans because without it they will not be able to study in these top unis. Their main priority is to get the funding and get a place at these tops unis.

    So you must be wondering whats wrong with that? Well, a growing number of EU students simply take these loans, one after another and then disappear after they've completed their studies without repaying the loans and the British government has to write off these debts. It's been reported several times and it's about time UK puts her foot down.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...g-tuition-fees
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ing-loans.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...pay-debts.html

    The money you send to EU can be used to invest in your NHS, build more hospitals, recruit more police officers, increase their salaries which should apply to teachers and junior doctors too, give incentives (funding, tax breaks) to British citizens to start their own businesses (entrepreneurship) and so much more.

    Vote Leave!
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    (Original post by Audrey18)
    JordanL_


    Your question was 'Why do Leave voters think they know better than experts?

    Because these 'experts' were wrong about the Gold standard, they were wrong about the single market when the intention all along was ever closer political union and they were wrong about the Euro.

    They were wrong then and they are wrong now!

    Naveed-7 Ladymusiclover RuWill2001 JC. JW22 DJKL


    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Do you recall the George Osbourne tax rebate fiasco from 2 years ago? EU slapped a £1.7 billion on UK but Cameron vowed that he would not pay it. What happened in the end? UK still paid up and did so quietly.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...u-budget-bill/
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...n-budget-bill/
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ember-deadline
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...happening.html

    Yesterday, the German finance minister said he would cry if UK voted Brexit. Of course he would! Cos UK is the one funding the EU and Germany gets to dictate who gets the money and what to do with it.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...718_story.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6909616.html

    Please understand that Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. Do you recall last year when EU forced Greece to accept a humongous financial bailout which EU knew Greece would never be able to repay back cos the interests were just too high? and the greek banks allowed its citizens to withdraw only €120 per week? When this news first broke out in Greece, its citizens queued up outside the bank to withdraw their monies but the banks were shut. Do you recall this man who cried outside the bank and this image went viral?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-man-banks/




    If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.

    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    You may have read or heard, many of these migrants have turned my country upside down. I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.


    And if you go onto the Oxbridge threads on this forum and some of the other top UK unis, you will see a growing number of EU students who simply want UK to stay in the EU so that they can apply for student loans because without it they will not be able to study in these top unis. Their main priority is to get the funding and get a place at these tops unis.

    So you must be wondering whats wrong with that? Well, a growing number of EU students simply take these loans, one after another and then disappear after they've completed their studies without repaying the loans and the British government has to write off these debts. It's been reported several times and it's about time UK puts her foot down.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...g-tuition-fees
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ing-loans.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...pay-debts.html

    The money you send to EU can be used to invest in your NHS, build more hospitals, recruit more police officers, increase their salaries which should apply to teachers and junior doctors too, give incentives (funding, tax breaks) to British citizens to start their own businesses (entrepreneurship) and so much more.

    Vote Leave!
    My Gosh, goodness gracious. That is so true Audrey. Thank you.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    My Gosh, goodness gracious. That is so true Audrey. Thank you.
    I've actually got loads of other equally valid points to make but I think these are enough to make one think long and hard. I don't want the 'Remainians' choking on more overwhelming facts when it's way past bedtime

    Just so you know, they don't teach these things in school. Whatever I've posted is based on the past two years of having an open mind while reading good sources for reliable news and watching unbiased documentaries. Steer away from the BBC and you'll be fine

    Lastly, and I could be wrong but my observations tell me that several people on this forum who oppose Brexit are from two camps. The first comprises of first generation British citizens whose parents immigrated to UK which is why they feel as though people are trying to marginalize their parents when they vocally support Brexit. The second are people who were born abroad and immigrated to UK at a young age with their parents in tow and similarly feeling being discriminated against when people support Brexit.

    In both instances these people are wrong. As a result of their personal bias (which is understandable), they are unable to see what Brexit actually means. So it doesn't matter how many of these threads are created, how many different ways the thread title is hashed and rehashed and/or how many more good points substantiated with hard evidence is provided, these people will never alter their position.

    The only way we can move forward is when people remove the wool from their eyes, put their personal agendas aside and see the referendum for what it actually is. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union? and for the reasons I've stated, the answer is obvious. Need I elaborate more?
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    These same experts have got it wrong on the Euro. They said that if we did not join the Euro, the UK's economy would suffer. Turns out, it was better to keep the Pound. These experts are so blinded by their love for the EU that they only see things one way.
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    Calling economists experts is pretty funny. No one is an expert when it comes to predicting things this complex.

    Personally I'm more worried about what is going to happen in the EU over the next decade. Italy is on the verge of collapse, in a Greek-esque failscade.
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    (Original post by FCB)
    Calling economists experts is pretty funny. No one is an expert when it comes to predicting things this complex.

    Personally I'm more worried about what is going to happen in the EU over the next decade. Italy is on the verge of collapse, in a Greek-esque failscade.
    Can you even imagine the carnage if a Italian or French collapse like the Greeks?
    Granted the latter isn't likely but the former is possible


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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Economists all over the world agree that leaving the EU is bad for our economy - "they don't know what they're talking about!!"

    Scientists all over the world tell us leaving the EU will be bad for science, technology and the environment - "selfish!!!"

    Leaders of every country of any significance telling us we'll be less powerful - "grrrrr but we're the mighty British Empire!!!!"

    I really can't understand the arrogance and ignorance involved in maintaining these kinds of delusions. It's really not normal or okay to dismiss the opinions of EVERYONE that knows what they're talking about, and deciding that you know better because you read the Daily Mail. At best it's a shocking lack of critical thinking, at worst it's schizophrenia.
    Which experts would these be? The ones that said we would crumble if we dont join the Euro? The ones that said to invade Iraq? The ones that said to dispose of Gaddafi? The ones that forewarned of the 2008 financial crash?

    Any of them..? Or are you on about the ones who's interests are best served in the EU?

    Newsflash.. the experts interests dont align with yours and they are not some infallible gods that they clearly have convinced you they are
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    (Original post by Chief Wiggum)
    A lot of people say that, but I'm wondering if this is an example of a difference between what people say they want to hear, and what they actually want to hear.

    I wouldn't be surprised if, despite people saying that they don't like negative messages, they are actually very effective in persuading people how to vote.
    I don't know what I meant to hear so I'm not one of those people.
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    (Original post by Audrey18)
    JordanL_


    Your question was 'Why do Leave voters think they know better than experts?

    Because these 'experts' were wrong about the Gold standard, they were wrong about the single market when the intention all along was ever closer political union and they were wrong about the Euro.

    They were wrong then and they are wrong now!

    Naveed-7 Ladymusiclover RuWill2001 JC. JW22 DJKL


    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Do you recall the George Osbourne tax rebate fiasco from 2 years ago? EU slapped a £1.7 billion on UK but Cameron vowed that he would not pay it. What happened in the end? UK still paid up and did so quietly.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...u-budget-bill/
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...n-budget-bill/
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ember-deadline
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...happening.html

    Yesterday, the German finance minister said he would cry if UK voted Brexit. Of course he would! Cos UK is the one funding the EU and Germany gets to dictate who gets the money and what to do with it.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...718_story.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6909616.html

    Please understand that Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. Do you recall last year when EU forced Greece to accept a humongous financial bailout which EU knew Greece would never be able to repay back cos the interests were just too high? and the greek banks allowed its citizens to withdraw only €120 per week? When this news first broke out in Greece, its citizens queued up outside the bank to withdraw their monies but the banks were shut. Do you recall this man who cried outside the bank and this image went viral?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-man-banks/




    If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.

    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    You may have read or heard, many of these migrants have turned my country upside down. I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.


    And if you go onto the Oxbridge threads on this forum and some of the other top UK unis, you will see a growing number of EU students who simply want UK to stay in the EU so that they can apply for student loans because without it they will not be able to study in these top unis. Their main priority is to get the funding and get a place at these tops unis.

    So you must be wondering whats wrong with that? Well, a growing number of EU students simply take these loans, one after another and then disappear after they've completed their studies without repaying the loans and the British government has to write off these debts. It's been reported several times and it's about time UK puts her foot down.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...g-tuition-fees
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ing-loans.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...pay-debts.html

    The money you send to EU can be used to invest in your NHS, build more hospitals, recruit more police officers, increase their salaries which should apply to teachers and junior doctors too, give incentives (funding, tax breaks) to British citizens to start their own businesses (entrepreneurship) and so much more.

    Vote Leave!
    Thanks so much for tagging me your post. The evidence you gave is amazing. More people need to read this. I will definitely be voting to leave the EU.
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    The same EU-funded "experts" that said Britain's economy would collapse and run into the ground if we didn't join the single Euro currency?

    Look at the state of the Euro now and compare it to our economy.
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    What, those "Experts" who work for and receive grants/subsides from the EU? They are saying we should stay in the EU? Shock. These "Experts" also predicted in the early 2000s that the pound would collapse if we didn't join the euro, that the euro would be a superpower by 2020 and also failed to predict the 2008 credit-crunch/2014 oil collapse & 2015 Chinese stock market crash - so my faith in "Experts" is just about zero.

    The "Most economist's support remain" argument is also crap, this is dragged up from a survey sent to 3,818 economists. Of which only 639 (or 16.7%) replied, of which 561 said Brexit would be bad for the economy. So the actual figure of economists actively supporting remain and warning against Brexit is 14.7% [http://order-order.com/2016/06/09/on...ppose-brexit/].

    If you've got to rely on a government sponsored shill's opinion to make your mind up, you probably best off not voting at all.
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    (Original post by NickLCFC)
    Remain voters only think about the potential short-term economic consequences rather than thinking in the long-term.

    Remain voters only think about the EU in its current form rather than the EU of the future.

    Remain voters dismiss immigration concerns and ignore the unsustainable net migration figures we see each year.

    Remain voters value GDP over quality of life.

    Remain voters don't value sovereignty or democracy as much as they value short-term economic security.

    Remain voters don't believe we can survive as an truly independent nation.

    Remain voters have no belief in Britain.
    .
    Spoiler:
    Show
    p.s. obviously all Remain voters aren't like this, I generalised intentionally because that's all OP ever does when talking about Leave voters
    It's clear you've never been to an economics or politics class in your life. Very poor arguments.
    1) Absurd. Remain are the only ones who care about the EU's future which is why we want to stay and reform, it's the brexiters who wants to leave and let the EU die - they don't care about the future of the EU.
    2) Really? Virtually everyone in the UK knows that too much immigration is unsustainable - we're not stupid. However, the evidence is that EU immigration is a net benefit of billions which helps strengthen our social services and the NHS.
    3) GDP over quality of life...? QOL is one of the key macroeconomic objectives all economists look at in depth when making decisions and 9/10 economics believe that QOL will be better in than out. You can rubbish experts but that will just make clear your stupidity.
    4) sigh... the democracy argument. Let's begin. Only 37% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives who now rule 100% of us. We have a failed voting system where the majority of MPs don't even have over 50% of constituencies' votes and there's heavy under-representation in terms of women and minorities in the commons. Don't get me started with the Lords - bishops!? And now money in politics, the conservatives are winning machines because they are bankrolled by millions more than other parties combined. Is this democracy? The executive now have sovereignty and not parliament which is against our constitution. Is this true sovereignty? I do agree the EU has a democratic deficit but at least they have a proportional voting system and reform can improve it - if you really cared about democracy and sovereignty you would have campaigned to reform the UK's democracy long before the EU like I have. Truth is, you don't care.
    5) We do think so, how is that an argument? We just believe we will be far worse off. You would survive outside of your house on the streets if you had sufficient resources sure - but soon enough you'll be mugged and winter will come and freeze you over. It'll be hell. Same goes for the EU. We will survive outside but we will face recession.
    6) Yeah we hate Britain, what a great argument. Got us there - looks like I'm voting brexit now...
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    (Original post by RME11)
    What, those "Experts" who work for and receive grants/subsides from the EU? They are saying we should stay in the EU? Shock. These "Experts" also predicted in the early 2000s that the pound would collapse if we didn't join the euro, that the euro would be a superpower by 2020 and also failed to predict the 2008 credit-crunch/2014 oil collapse & 2015 Chinese stock market crash - so my faith in "Experts" is just about zero.

    The "Most economist's support remain" argument is also crap, this is dragged up from a survey sent to 3,818 economists. Of which only 639 (or 16.7%) replied, of which 561 said Brexit would be bad for the economy. So the actual figure of economists actively supporting remain and warning against Brexit is 14.7% [http://order-order.com/2016/06/09/on...ppose-brexit/].

    If you've got to rely on a government sponsored shill's opinion to make your mind up, you probably best off not voting at all.
    If only 14.7% of economists support remain, then you are suggesting the remaining 3179 economists who didn't respond support a Brexit? Absolutely not, your statistics are inconclusive. The fact is, 87% of economists that DID respond favoured Remain over Leave. Judging by how percentages work, the majority of the 3179 who did not respond would most likely favour remain too.
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    (Original post by BW999)
    If only 14.7% of economists support remain, then you are suggesting the remaining 3179 economists who didn't respond support a Brexit? Absolutely not, your statistics are inconclusive. The fact is, 87% of economists that DID respond favoured Remain over Leave. Judging by how percentages work, the majority of the 3179 who did not respond would most likely favour remain too.
    No - I'm not suggesting the 85.3% who didn't respond are for leave. I am suggesting that they are not actively denouncing brexit in public and wearing a "I'm in" T-shirt whilst forecasting that the seas are going to boil and the skies are going to blacken like the 14.7% who did seem to be.

    I think the other 85.3% who didn't respond either think that it's too hard to call & don't want to make a judgement and the rest just don't care enough to get vocal - I would like to think the opinions match the public opinion polling. Bottom line is, if the UK is a leader in the EU and we're such a great country, then why can't we thrive outside the EU? I think we're being sold short by these "Experts" and even slippery Dave himself.
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Your argument fails to understand that representative democracy assumes the representatives will indeed identify with the views we want them to support. The fact of the matter is that with access to information, the experts are often wrong and misleading.
    If you're going to say the experts are wrong then i'm afraid you're going to have to substantiate that incredibly vague and generalised claim. Or have you been hit by the "The EU is out to get us and there is a massive conspiracy!" fever that all the delusional brexiters have got?
 
 
 
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