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TSR's Big EU Referendum- The Panel Debates @19:30 watch

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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Topic 3 question, sorry for the inconvenience

    ‘The European Union can create laws as a collective union to move the EU further and benefit the people, yet the fact that EU law is supreme to UK law- in certain circumstances, causes a problem for our lawmakers at Westminster’ What's your thoughts on this issue?

    Firstly, in the UK Parliament IS sovereign. EU law is only 'supreme' with the authority of Parliament. The EU only has power in the areas we let them have power in. And as a member of the EU we haven't given up power but rather we're sharing power and pooling sovereignty, allowing us to influence the EU nations just as they influence us. For the last few decades the UK has voted with the majority in the European Council an overwhelming number of times (95% of votes since 1999). The EU exacerbates our influence.

    However, as we all know some challenges (whether it be with regards to the environment as we've just started to discuss or whether it's dealing with corporate greed) require countries to work together. Common laws across the continent are by far more efficient than 28 different countries with different regulations on everything.

    Our lawmakers at Westminster, by and large, support out membership of the EU. It's not a problem. In fact it's the solution to so many problems.
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    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I agree, The EU has has the power to take on and challenge Multi National Companies. If The UK left The UK, we would simply not be able to do this.
    May I draw your attention to the Competition and Marketing Authority!

    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    I would advise people to take a long read of what you see above. Ask yourself this. Its hard enough as it is right now to get young people involved into politics. How hard is it going to be when the EU commission sounds like a Jigsaw puzzle which takes a A level maths student to understand?

    Democracy should be simple so its available to everyone of any IQ.
    Would you agree both sides have used high levels of jargon, making it hard to understand?
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Great debate there- and all the thoughts can come together and allow everyone to formulate their choice for Thursday

    And topic 3, we move onto rule making and legislative issues, and our statement

    'The United Kingdom’s open door policy allows skilled workers to come into our country and benefit our economy, however our nation's public services such as education and health are under strain because of this’ Your thoughts on the validity of this statement?
    This is a valid statement, but it's also perfectly valid to say that there are many immigrants who make a valuable contribution in the fields of education and health, so my concern is jobs in general and in particular low-skilled jobs - there are some incredibly poor countries in the EU, mainly in eastern Europe, and naturally citizens of those countries who want to make extra money migrate to richer countries where they can earn more. But the trouble is that most of those people aren't qualified and don't really have anything that this country needs, so they're looking for and getting menial jobs such as cleaning and domestic service - the same jobs as poor British people who are hardup and down on their luck. The fact is that there are a finite number of jobs in this field, and if you have more competition for the same number of jobs then it results in more people being unemployed - and in a country where 1 million people have to use a food bank, I don't think that's something we need to be allowing to happen.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The President of the Commission was directly elected by the People of the EU as he is selected because he is the Presidential candidate of the largest EU party
    This reminds me a lot of the recent NUS debates. Tell me, when you vote for a party in the EU elections, where exactly does it say in the manifestos who will be the president of the commission if they win and what their agenda is, because that seems to be critically important. When we vote it is on the manifestos of OUR parties, not the groups, and there is no mention of commission presidents in there
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    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I agree, The EU has has the power to take on and challenge Multi National Companies. If The UK left The UK, we would simply not be able to do this.
    If they have so much power to take on the TNCs, why are they so bad at it?
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    Remainers, would you agree?

    (Original post by THEqualitystreet)
    According to the Guardian the number of people who have to work on minimum wage will double over the next 20 years. This is great news for company bosses and shareholders. This is fuelled by workers from post 2004 accession countries happily wanting to work for minimum wage as it is double the minimum wage in their own countries. Work here for a year, live 10 to a house then go back with 2 years worth of pay. This drives up rents and lowers the wages that bosses will offer. The 2 speed EU is broken. A vote for remain will condemn our young people to a life on minimum wage.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    I would advise people to take a long read of what you see above. Ask yourself this. Its hard enough as it is right now to get young people involved into politics. How hard is it going to be when the EU commission sounds like a Jigsaw puzzle which takes a A level maths student to understand?

    Democracy should be simple so its available to everyone of any IQ.
    I would say that the way the EU commission works is very simple to understand when you try
    I would suggest that any person who reads what I said could begin to understand the way the commission is appointed.
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    2 minutes folks then we must move on
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    (Original post by RuWill2001)
    I agree, The EU has has the power to take on and challenge Multi National Companies. If The UK left The UK, we would simply not be able to do this.
    On the contray .....

    The EU wants to bring in the Trans Pacific Partnership which will grant corporations compensation if the British Government cancel contracts which bring in revenue for that particular corporation.

    Since the NHS has been almost privatized the NHS may face being torn apart by corporations crying for compensation even though they may have done a bad job.

    Corporations doing a bad job? ATOS healthcare ? The Government managemed to make ATOS pay compensation to the UK Government but under the EU Trans Pacific Partnership deal we will be paying ATOS healthcare compensation instead.

    Do you really want this?

    It seems the REMAIN camp want Corporate Fascism and excessive undemocratic regulation.

    But that is what the EU COMMISSION IS. FULL OF LOBBYISTS DROOLING OVER POWER.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    This is a valid statement, but it's also perfectly valid to say that there are many immigrants who make a valuable contribution in the fields of education and health, so my concern is jobs in general and in particular low-skilled jobs - there are some incredibly poor countries in the EU, mainly in eastern Europe, and naturally citizens of those countries who want to make extra money migrate to richer countries where they can earn more. But the trouble is that most of those people aren't qualified and don't really have anything that this country needs, so they're looking for and getting menial jobs such as cleaning and domestic service - the same jobs as poor British people who are hardup and down on their luck. The fact is that there are a finite number of jobs in this field, and if you have more competition for the same number of jobs then it results in more people being unemployed - and in a country where 1 million people have to use a food bank, I don't think that's something we need to be allowing to happen.
    You sorta suck. :')

    (the statement's changed)
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    We just heard it claimed from the Remain campaign that all the experts say there will be a recession, far from true but let's run with this. The very same experts, when you take their longer term projections into account too, ultimately say "it will be bad in the short term, but in the longer term growth will be stronger." What remain is saying is that we should not be taking the medicine now to be healthier tomorrow.
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    And we move onto our final topic- Future proposals and reform

    ‘The European Union has make future proposals, including allowing Turkey and other Baltic nations to join which could cause issues for free movement of people, yet has other future reforms which could benefit our nation’ How far would you agree with this?
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    We often hear itbandied about by the Remain campaign that we should remain in the EUso we can reform it from the inside, this is pure delusion. Theentire history of our relationship with the EU and its predecessorshas been a history of failed reform. At no point in history have morethan the fringes of British politics wanted a federal European state;at every point in history we have been told that we will not be drawninto a federal Europe; at every point in our history we have beendrawn closer into political union. But this should come as nosurprise, it has been the goal since day 1. To quote Monnet:

    “Europe's nationsshould b guided towards the superstate without their peopleunderstanding what is happening. This can be accomplished bysuccessive steps, each disguised as having
    an economic purpose, butwhich will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation”

    What have we seenduring the history of the EU? Exactly what Monnet said. We went inbeing told it was merely a trade deal and then we have a politicalunion. Then we joined (and left) the ERM because we were told not towould destroy the economy. Then came the Euro, once again, we had tojoin or the economy would be ruined. Similarly, the Norwegians weretold “join or your economy will go to ruin.” Monnet's method hasbeen followed well, and there is a strong attitude in Brussels thatmore power needs amalgamating, Brussels needs to be made stronger,the EU needs to be a state in all but name.

    But don't take my wordfor the fact that this federal progression isn't over, here is whatsome of the leading people in Brussels have to say:

    Guy Verhofstadt, leaderof the ALDE group and quite possibly the next president of theparliament has a great deal to say:
    “A Europe of nationsis a relic of the past”- February 2010
    “The best way todefend the interests of France and to defend the interests of Germanyis to defend the inerest of the European Union and to give more powerto Europe”- September 2011
    “Why is there such aproblem in this crisis? Because member states are reluctatnt totransfer new sovereignty and powers to the EU. And we all know thatthe only way out of this crisis is a new transfer of powers to the EUand the European Institutions”- 28 September 2011
    “Another suggestionthat we can make th Her Majesty's Government is that, if it wants tomake savings in the British public sector, it can do so by increasingthe role of the EU,..., it can join the euro, it can give the EU morepowers and responsibilities”- 8 June 2011
    “We must date to takean even more radical leap: a leap towards a fully-fledged Europeannationality”- October 2012

    Herman van Rompuy,president of the council 2009-2014
    “The time of thehomogeneous nation-state is over”- November 2010

    Jose Manuel Barroso,president of the commission 2004-14
    “A political unionneeds to be our political horizon”- September 2013

    Viviane Reding, EUcommissioner 1999-2014
    “We need a politicalfederation with the commission as government”- 3 December 2013

    Joseph Daul, MEP1999-2014
    “Europe is not theproblem- Europe is the solution”- 6 March 2014

    Martin Schulz,president of the parliament 2014-present
    “Britain belongs tothe EU”- 17 June 2015

    Jean-Claude Junker,president of the commission 2014-present
    “The Euro isirreversible”- 12 May 2014
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    This reminds me a lot of the recent NUS debates. Tell me, when you vote for a party in the EU elections, where exactly does it say in the manifestos who will be the president of the commission if they win and what their agenda is, because that seems to be critically important. When we vote it is on the manifestos of OUR parties, not the groups, and there is no mention of commission presidents in there
    EU parties state their presidential candidates before the elections. There were televised debates last EU election for the presidential candidates. This is a lot like saying that you don't vote for the prime minister in the general election but your representative. Parties at the national level share policy platforms at the EU.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We just heard it claimed from the Remain campaign that all the experts say there will be a recession, far from true but let's run with this. The very same experts, when you take their longer term projections into account too, ultimately say "it will be bad in the short term, but in the longer term growth will be stronger." What remain is saying is that we should not be taking the medicine now to be healthier tomorrow.
    Can you cite sources for that?

    It's quite clear that 9 out of 10 economists believe Brexit will have a negative impact on our GDP. Leaving is not worth the risk of an emergency budget with cuts to the poorest in society.
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    Topic 4
    Opening Statement

    Ultimately, this referendum is about our future. I believe our country's future lies in collaboration with our partners in the European Union. 60 years of collaboration between dozens of nations and millions of people was never going to be a simple task. And if it's been difficult until now there will still be challenges going forward. But now isn't the time to quit.

    Though the Brexiters will belittle David Cameron's EU 'deal' (they wouldn't have been happy no matter what the outcome of the negotiation) it is proof that the EU is receptive to reform and improvement. If we want to be we're completly free from 'ever closer union'. And if we ever choose to pursue that course it remains open to us.

    Despite the facts, the Brexit camp have been trying to take advantage of people's fear of the cultural and economic strain of immigration by peddling the lie that Turkey, our NATO ally, and other nations are imminently about to join the EU. We have a veto on this. It won't happen if we don't want it to. Your Britishness isn't about to be absorbed in some EU superstate. Your identity isn't under attack. Don't tear down what we've built for the sake of symbols.

    Our United Kingdom's future outside would not be certain – with a majority of Scots wanting a second independence referendum in the case of a Leave vote and with the Northern Irish economy so beholden to the benefits of EU membership. But the problems at home would be minor compared to the problems abroad – trade deals painstakingly rengotiated on inferior terms with the most vulnerable paying the price during the inevitable years of economic uncertainty as the fickle markets respond. All as a result of a tidal wave of misguided nationalism.

    There is a better way. We can continue to be part of something bigger than ourselves – the EU is a messy, bureaucratic organisation but it stands for peace and democracy and the values we hold dear. This project is a noble one. Don't give up on it yet.
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Can you cite sources for that?

    It's quite clear that 9 out of 10 economists believe Brexit will have a negative impact on our GDP. Leaving is not worth the risk of an emergency budget with cuts to the poorest in society.
    An emergency budget that would never happen, for several reasons actualy. First, Osborne will not be chancellor, second it makes LITERALLY no economic sense, he would in effect be saying "we said there will be a recession so I will make one"

    I've gone through it pretty comprehensively in other threads, but the overview is that if we take the various sources to be true and assume the recession is 1 year, and the recovery takes one year, it's simple mathematics. For instance, if we take the treasury reports we get that inside the EU we get 42% growth over 14 years, if we leave we have a total of 36% to gain, but when we take the recession, recovery, and compound effect of that we are looking at a minimum of 42% growth over only 12 years, clearly the growth if we leave is greater. It gets better if we take the PwC growth projections and the slightly harsher recession figures, because we see average 2.5% growth inside the EU, and after factoring in the recession and the year long recovery, plus compound effect, we need 3.3% annual growth to reconcile the figures.
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    #VoteLeave: Legislative Issues

    THE EUROPEAN PROJECT
    • Jean Monnet (founding father of the EU): 'Common market will lead to unity and produce political union which is the goal' | NWE
    • President Jean Claude Juncker: "There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties" | BBC

    DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT
    • Democratically elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) cannot propose, initiate, or even repeal legislation | EUR
    • We are 1 voice in 28 (soon to be 35), and have only a tiny share (13%) of the all important EU Council of Ministers vote vs. "at top table" | FFT

    LOSS OF SOVEREIGNTY
    • A federalised United States of Europe and EU armed forces are very real prospects a la: 'ever closer union' and 'common defence' | EUR
    • The bulk of UK law is already heavily influenced by EU law - which is supreme, at any rate. Political unification will mean total submission | HoC

    LOSS OF DIGNITY
    • Surreptitious global (crony) capitalist deals like TTIP will eventually get passed vs. consumer/privacy/environmental standards and GovT sued | ZH
    • No control over massive EU migration has led to GovT squeezing other migrants, which is both iniquitous and to the detriment of our nation | GDN

    (Original post by adam9317)
    The European Union can create laws as a collective union to move the EU further and benefit the people
    To assume all 'forward movement' is necessarily progressive is a major mistake, particularly in the context of an anti-Democratic, increasingly totalitarian, centralising technocracy like the EU. What we should have had is an EU that works with the member nations, rather than one that sanctimoniously dictates to them. This is fundamental to why we are seeing growing resentment of the EU and it's institutions on the continent

    (Original post by Aph)
    The President of the Commission was directly elected by the People of the EU as he is selected because he is the Presidential candidate of the largest EU party
    He is the candidate that the largest political bloc agree on. This is a pretty backwards way of arriving at a leader with a supposed 'Democratic' mandate

    the commission, they are given a brief by the President of the commission, who can also sack them if he thinks they are doing a bad job, and they act like the cabinet for the EU
    The entire commission has to be replaced if they're doing a bad job, further to a no confidence vote. Do you know how many times this has actually happened in the history of the EU? It's an 'in club', not just in the sense that it's about cosy relationships but in the sense that once you're in, you're in - virtually no-one gets removed, no matter how much fraud/corruption takes place (and plenty does, sadly)
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    We often hear itbandied about by the Remain campaign that we should remain in the EUso we can reform it from the inside, this is pure delusion. Theentire history of our relationship with the EU and its predecessorshas been a history of failed reform. At no point in history have morethan the fringes of British politics wanted a federal European state;at every point in history we have been told that we will not be drawninto a federal Europe; at every point in our history we have beendrawn closer into political union. But this should come as nosurprise, it has been the goal since day 1. To quote Monnet:

    “Europe's nationsshould b guided towards the superstate without their peopleunderstanding what is happening. This can be accomplished bysuccessive steps, each disguised as having
    an economic purpose, butwhich will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation”

    What have we seenduring the history of the EU? Exactly what Monnet said. We went inbeing told it was merely a trade deal and then we have a politicalunion. Then we joined (and left) the ERM because we were told not towould destroy the economy. Then came the Euro, once again, we had tojoin or the economy would be ruined. Similarly, the Norwegians weretold “join or your economy will go to ruin.” Monnet's method hasbeen followed well, and there is a strong attitude in Brussels thatmore power needs amalgamating, Brussels needs to be made stronger,the EU needs to be a state in all but name.

    But don't take my wordfor the fact that this federal progression isn't over, here is whatsome of the leading people in Brussels have to say:

    Guy Verhofstadt, leaderof the ALDE group and quite possibly the next president of theparliament has a great deal to say:
    “A Europe of nationsis a relic of the past”- February 2010
    “The best way todefend the interests of France and to defend the interests of Germanyis to defend the inerest of the European Union and to give more powerto Europe”- September 2011
    “Why is there such aproblem in this crisis? Because member states are reluctatnt totransfer new sovereignty and powers to the EU. And we all know thatthe only way out of this crisis is a new transfer of powers to the EUand the European Institutions”- 28 September 2011
    “Another suggestionthat we can make th Her Majesty's Government is that, if it wants tomake savings in the British public sector, it can do so by increasingthe role of the EU,..., it can join the euro, it can give the EU morepowers and responsibilities”- 8 June 2011
    “We must date to takean even more radical leap: a leap towards a fully-fledged Europeannationality”- October 2012

    Herman van Rompuy,president of the council 2009-2014
    “The time of thehomogeneous nation-state is over”- November 2010

    Jose Manuel Barroso,president of the commission 2004-14
    “A political unionneeds to be our political horizon”- September 2013

    Viviane Reding, EUcommissioner 1999-2014
    “We need a politicalfederation with the commission as government”- 3 December 2013

    Joseph Daul, MEP1999-2014
    “Europe is not theproblem- Europe is the solution”- 6 March 2014

    Martin Schulz,president of the parliament 2014-present
    “Britain belongs tothe EU”- 17 June 2015

    Jean-Claude Junker,president of the commission 2014-present
    “The Euro isirreversible”- 12 May 2014
    I refer you to our opening statement. Out of context quotations are nothing against the truth.
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    (Original post by adam9317)
    Topic 3 question, sorry for the inconvenience

    ‘The European Union can create laws as a collective union to move the EU further and benefit the people, yet the fact that EU law is supreme to UK law- in certain circumstances, causes a problem for our lawmakers at Westminster’ What's your thoughts on this issue?
    I personally agree to an extent, because firstly, European law is made by the European Parliament - and while it's democratic, there's still a lot of murkiness surrounding how it's elected and how the elections work. For example, the European Parliament has political parties of its own, and yet almost no-one has ever heard of them and we don't hear a peep out of them at European election time, elections being fought on a national basis by national parties on national issues. I think that raises serious questions about the democratic legitimacy of what the European Parliament does. Secondly, EU law provides an obstacle to UK law being enacted and therefore potentially to the extent to which the policies that the elected government of the UK has a democratic mandate to carry out can be implemented - and I think it seriously undermines democracy in this country if a government which has a democratic mandate to do something is stopped from doing that thing by an institution controlled by parties that no-one has heard of and that no-one knows the collective policies of.
 
 
 
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